Pathfinder 1E I get the feeling Paizo isn't worried about Wizards of the Coast.

[Echohawk]

It's not quite at that level, but there is a fair amount of product put out each year from Paizo - even more if you count the Pathfinder Society adventure downloads. (At its peak, TSR had an insane amount of product per month).

You might be surprised.

TSR's output peaked at 79 game products in 1995.

Paizo's output for 2013 (excluding miniatures, novels, Pathfinder Society releases and the card game) included 12 adventure paths, 12 campaign setting supplements, 14 companion products, 6 adventures, 15 map products, 10 packs of cards, 5 sets of pawns, and 5 hardcovers and misc. accessories. That's a total of... wait for it... 79 products.

 

[Anjohl]

System wars

I will tell you right now, as a new adult DM, I would love a system that combined D&D 4th's easy to read layouts with Pathfinders dizzying support materials. All those map folios, card sets, and tied together adventure paths make me pine for Pathfinder, without even ever playing it.

 

[quaternion]

I keep hearing claims like this, as if it's 2011 still.

Things have changed with Pathfinder. Did nobody notice that the current Adventure Path references:

Advanced Player’s Guide
Bestiary
Bestiary 2
Bestiary 3
GameMastery Guide
Lords of Chaos, Book of the Damned, Vol. 2
NPC Codex
Paths of Prestige
Ultimate Combat
Ultimate Equipment
Ultimate Magic
Mythic Rules

In addition to the Core rules.

You don't need to buy any of those books to play the adventure path. All the content is available for free online and is very well indexed at Paizo's web site, among others. Additional NPCs, monsters and equipment doesn't feel like rules bloat to me. Granted that the Mythic Rules are a new addition, and the APG and Ultimate books add a few new mechanics. Is that rules bloat? I honestly don't know; as a relatively new Pathfinder player, it doesn't fell overwhelming, merely interesting.

If Paizo and WotC are competitors, then Paizo is doing a good job of commoditizing the competitor's core product while charging a premium for, if not monopolizing, their own.

 

[wlmartin]

I havent been active on this forum for a good 1-2 years but its surprising how things don't change and "some people" are still trolling the forum, creating "Don't you think that XXXXX is rubbish, lets discuss" and really surprised that the person(s) in question haven't moved on or grown up.

I suppose there is an element of trolling a troll is in itself a troll (i mean, everyone is entitled to their opinion) but I just find it curious that whilst there are landmark posters like delericho who are still here and contributing well, and some are still here but haven't learned how to interact with their chosen peer group.

 

[Mistwell]

You don't need to buy any of those books to play the adventure path.

Which has nothing to do with my point. I didn't say you needed to buy anything (though people are buying it).

I was responding to the claim that Paizo has focused on adventures and non-rules stuff. That's not true anymore and hasn't been true for almost two years now. They've been focusing a LOT on non-adventure stuff, and plenty of rules stuff. And they're including those things in their adventures, making sure you're also tied to their non-adventure rules stuff even if you are just buying the adventures. I am talking about a cultural shift in the content for Pathfinder, not what you need to buy. It's no longer just adventure content they're pushing.

And though people don't "need" to buy the non-adventure stuff, they ARE buying it (or else Paizo is burning cash for nothing putting all that stuff out).

Additional NPCs, monsters and equipment doesn't feel like rules bloat to me. Granted that the Mythic Rules are a new addition, and the APG and Ultimate books add a few new mechanics. Is that rules bloat? I honestly don't know; as a relatively new Pathfinder player, it doesn't fell overwhelming, merely interesting.

Yeah I know it doesn't "feel" that way, which is why I referenced the boiling frog parable. It's the same sort of stuff WOTC put out, they just did it in a smaller time frame, and relative to the speed Paizo was going it seemed like it was not very fast.

But relative to the speed of a new edition? One look at a massive bookcase of books in a game store, relative to a few books in a new edition, and I think the contrast will be pretty noticeable to a new player. I was shocked at just how much content for Pathfinder there was at my local game store these days. It's definitely daunting to look at, if you have not even started playing yet.

You might be surprised.

TSR's output peaked at 79 game products in 1995.

Paizo's output for 2013 (excluding miniatures, novels, Pathfinder Society releases and the card game) included 12 adventure paths, 12 campaign setting supplements, 14 companion products, 6 adventures, 15 map products, 10 packs of cards, 5 sets of pawns, and 5 hardcovers and misc. accessories. That's a total of... wait for it... 79 products.

Wow. So Morrus' instincts were correct, it is about what the peak TSR output was!

That...is probably not a good sign.

 

[Janx]

Well I have been a customer since 1985 and I really hate to sit out two editions in a row.

*shrugs*

This caught me as contradictory.

If you started in 1985, and have sat out the last 2 editions, that' pretty much means you haven't been a customer of theirs for about 10 years or so.

It's fine if you used to drive Ford and now you prefer Chevy. In which case, quit moping about Fords because they should be beneath your notice.

 

[Imaro]

This caught me as contradictory.

If you started in 1985, and have sat out the last 2 editions, that' pretty much means you haven't been a customer of theirs for about 10 years or so.

It's fine if you used to drive Ford and now you prefer Chevy. In which case, quit moping about Fords because they should be beneath your notice.

I think he's saying he sat out one edition (4th) and would hate to have to sit out on Next... but I could be wrong.

 

[Janx]

I think he's saying he sat out one edition (4th) and would hate to have to sit out on Next... but I could be wrong.

I could be too.

I'm still on 3.x. Haven't touched PF or the newer D&D. I am quite happy not spending any money, and unlike cars, my stuff isn't wearing out and in need of replacement with a newer model.

The way I see it, find a game edition you like, and don't be fretting what other people like. Your wallet will thank you for not chasing the newest model.

 

[Thotas]

That's not once or twice a year anymore guys. And that is stuff actually directly referenced in the AP!

Paizo has said they actually feel obligated to do so -- and I think they are. A lot of people use the Adventure Paths because they haven't got the time for anyone in the group having the resources to create their own world and scenarios. So if I buy Bestiary 3 and Paizo never draws from it, if I'm running an AP Bestiary 3 is just useless paper to me. As has been pointed out, the material is available without purchase. Paizo realizes that making an adventure inaccessible is cutting their own throat every bit as much as letting their supplements lay useless is. I'd say they've found the perfect compromise point.

 

[Imaro]

Which has nothing to do with my point. I didn't say you needed to buy anything (though people are buying it).

I was responding to the claim that Paizo has focused on adventures and non-rules stuff. That's not true anymore and hasn't been true for almost two years now. They've been focusing a LOT on non-adventure stuff, and plenty of rules stuff. And they're including those things in their adventures, making sure you're also tied to their non-adventure rules stuff even if you are just buying the adventures. I am talking about a cultural shift in the content for Pathfinder, not what you need to buy. It's no longer just adventure content they're pushing.

Ok, just to be clear are you claiming that Paizo's focus is no longer on adventures and non-rules stuff and that it has instead shifted to rules?

Yeah I know it doesn't "feel" that way, which is why I referenced the boiling frog parable. It's the same sort of stuff WOTC put out, they just did it in a smaller time frame, and relative to the speed Paizo was going it seemed like it was not very fast.

Wait so are you considering new monsters and new NPC's... the same as rules bloat? If so not sure I agree with that characterization, unless these monsters and NPC's are using totally different rules that haven't been published before the Bestiary or NPC collection... is that the case?

But relative to the speed of a new edition? One look at a massive bookcase of books in a game store, relative to a few books in a new edition, and I think the contrast will be pretty noticeable to a new player. I was shocked at just how much content for Pathfinder there was at my local game store these days. It's definitely daunting to look at, if you have not even started playing yet.

I guess I agree with the first part of this, an established and successful game will (usually) have more books than a brand new edition... Uhm ok sure. Outside of stumbling upon it accidentally... I'm not sure how daunting the numvber of books is for a new player, especially if they are being introduced by an established player or players (especially since this is one of the perks of getting started with an established game as opposed to a new edition). Not to mention other factors such as the fact that the internet pretty much guarantees anyone interested enough in the game can easily find out what they need to start if they want to, Pathfinder has a very good Beginner Box (which also tells one what they need to start the full game) and Pathfinder is pretty clear on what the "core" rulebook is... All IMO of course.