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I hate monks

Tinner

First Post
I too hated the monk, until I realized the real problem I had was with the name.
"Monk" implies one of two things. A catholic-style brown robed Brother Cadfael type, or a Kung-Fu fightin' man.
But if you change the name to something like Brawler, or Battler, or Hand to Hand Specialist it makes more sense.
I've used the monk class to play professional wrasslers, street fighters, pugilists, etc.
Change the name and flavor, and the monk's not so bad.
 

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iwatt

First Post
Reynard said:
I fail to see how the monk implies anything more problematic than do the druid, barbarian, or paladin -- each of those is a cultural archetype that require some force to get into a generic setting, and each one can feel a little strange when you start throwing gnomes and halflings into the role. How is the monk any different, or worse?

It's different because druid, barbarian or paladin all fit a Western Medieval D&D campaign.

Ninja, monk, samurai all fit an Oriental D&D camapign.


Personally, I'm OK with an unarmed warrior. But the core monk comes with a lot of Shaolin flavor. Mouseferatu is right that a DM or player can work against type and retcon the abilities to be enpowered by something else, but some people would prefer that the monk came without so much intrinsic "flavor". You have to change the monk weapons as well. And the always Lawful sticks in my craw.

By the way:
Pugilism/Boxing is a Martial Art. What weapons would you give him (nunchucks seem out of place). Also, how do his attacks become lawful?

Capoeira is a Martial Art. same problem as above.

Didn't Native Americans have their own wrestling style?


Personally, I'd have kept the core monk with good saves, d8 hit dice, 4 skill points, improving damage, increasing speed, removed special monk weapons, given them good BAB, and replaced funky Ki abilities with bonus feats (with said Ki abilities as a subset in the bonus feat list).
 

Li Shenron

Legend
Reynard said:
I fail to see how the monk implies anything more problematic than do the druid, barbarian, or paladin -- each of those is a cultural archetype that require some force to get into a generic setting, and each one can feel a little strange when you start throwing gnomes and halflings into the role. How is the monk any different, or worse?

As iwatt says, it's an archetype which just never had a place in western literature (before D&D). For the record, I would have the same problems in fitting the paladin archetype in an oriental or african setting, but that doesn't mean I don't like paladins in western settings.
 

Klaus

First Post
I am on Mouseferatu's side on this one. Different fluff = non-Oriental class. Case in point (from the Fiery Dragon website article I wrote in 2004):

The Rise
of the
Monastic Dragons

by Claudio Pozas

monastic_dragon.jpg


1,200 years ago, the realms of Eastern Thalesia were embroiled in a centuries-long battle against the Shadow King and his dread minions. Never had civilization stood on the brink of such utter destruction. The Shadow King's furnaces spewed forth a seemingly endless supply of abominations to battle the kingdoms of Kalendia, Tendaria and Pelagus. Squads of war golems, hordes of skeletal warriors and flights of evil dragons swept down upon the unsuspecting nations that bordered Malus. For five centuries the battles raged, scarring the countryside and establishing a warrior mindset on generations of humans, elves, dwarves and others.

Of all the despicable lieutenants of the Shadow King, few were more cruel than Creomesh. Turning his back on the gnomish legacy for light-hearted wisdom and quick-witted remarks, Creomesh established himself as the main developer for Malus' war machine. His war golems could bring down dozens of knights, while his Doom Furnace created undead by the thousands, and his apprentices rained fire and thunder upon their desperate opponents.

When the Shadow Wars ended, 700 years ago, it was time for the human nations to assess the damage and lick their wounds. But a small cadre of warriors realized that they were ill-prepared for the rise of evil wizards and their mystical creations. They relied upon weapons that failed to cut through a golem's body, and relied upon armor that did nothing to protect them from fireballs and other magical attacks. They had to be prepared for the worst. Agreeing that spellcasters were too dangerous to run around unchecked, these warriors took it upon themselves to keep tabs on those magic-wielders that rose to enough power to become a threat. The general consensus was that stealth and subterfuge was paramount to such an endeavour, so they couldn't depend on large weapons and heavy armor. Inspired by the most powerful of Karathis' native creatures - the dragons - they developed skills that allowed them to shed those warrior trappings.

Hard discipline and an almost sadistic threshold for pain turned their bodies and minds into veritable fortresses, for mind control was a danger they had to account for. Eventually, they were able to shed the effect of even the most powerful spells, and could focus their inner power into sidestepping even space itself. With training, their hands were able to punch holes into even the hardest golem shell, and they developed exotic weapons inspired by the natural arsenal of the dragons. When the first of the Monastic Dragons managed to elude age itself, they knew they were ready.

The martial training of the Monastic Dragons appealed to the young residents of the Free Nations. Those with the right ammount of dedication, fitness and discipline joined the recently-built monasteries. If the acolyte managed to turn his unarmed strikes into magical weaponry - a test of true worthiness - the master of the monastery shared the true purpose of their order, and the apprentice could finally call himself a Monastic Dragon.

Monastic Dragon Weapons

(Note: In the descriptions below, the word "monk" is used here in place of "monastic dragon" to keep in line with the core rules. all weapons are exotic, except for the quarterstaff, which is simple)

Cost Dmg (S) Dmg (M) Critical Range Increment Weight Type
Light Melee Weapons
Club, Dragontail 2 gp 1d4 1d6 x2 — 2 lb. Bludgeoning
Dagger, Dragonhorn 1 gp 1d3 1d4 x2 10 ft. 1 lb. Piercing
Dragonfang 3 gp 1d4 1d6 x2 — 1 lb. Piercing
Sword, Dragontongue 2 gp 1d4 1d6 x2 — 2 lb. Slashing

Two-Handed Melee Weapon
Quarterstaff — 1d4/1d4 1d6/1d6 x2 — 4 lb. Bludgeoning

Ranged Weapon
Dart, Dragonscale (5) 1 gp 1 1d2 x2 10 ft. 1/2 lb. Piercing

monastic_dragon_weapons.jpg


Club, Dragontail: The dragontail club is a special monk weapon. This designation gives a monk wielding a dragontail club special options. You can use a dragontail club to make trip attacks. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the dragontail club to avoid being tripped.

Dagger, Dragonhorn: With a dragonhorn dagger, you get a +4 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an enemy (including the roll to avoid being disarmed if such an attempt fails). The dragonhorn dagger is a special monk weapon. This designation gives a monk wielding a dragonhorn dagger special options.

Dart, Dragonscale: A dragonscale dart is a special monk weapon. This designation gives a monk wielding dragonscale darts special options. A dragonscale dart can’t be used as a melee weapon. Although they are thrown weapons, dragonscale darts are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them and what happens to them after they are thrown.

Dragonfang: With a dragonfang, you get a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an enemy (including the roll to avoid being disarmed if such an attempt fails). The dragonfang is a special monk weapon. This designation gives a monk wielding a dragonfang special options.

Quarterstaff: A quarterstaff is a double weapon. You can fight with it as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. A creature wielding a quarterstaff in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.
The quarterstaff is a special monk weapon. This designation gives a monk wielding a quarterstaff special options.

Sword, Dragontongue: This blade is very flexible and must be used in darting motions to be effective. The dragontongue sword is a special monk weapon. This designation gives a monk wielding a dragontongue special options. With a dragontongue sword, you get a +2 bonus on Bluff checks made to feint in combat.
 

Psychic Warrior

First Post
I've never really had a problem with the monk. My world is big enough to allow some so-called "eastern" flavour into it. I may even allow Ninja, Wu Jen and Samurai one day. Right now the Monk fits the bill for the mystic warrior role just fine although at low levels he is woefully underpowered. By about 6th the Monk hits his stride quite nicely.

edit - Very cool varient Klaus! I have also seen 'Monkish' based PrC that rely on perfecting weapons like a longsword instaed of the standard monk weapons.
 
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Psion

Adventurer
I don't mind the monk mechanically or role-wise. Though it's a bit odd that their specialty seems to be against spellcasters. Still, I can see it.

The flavor bugs me, though. The monk falls afoul my "too narrow to be a core class" sensibility.

I rather prefer the flexible, extensible takes of Goodman/CmBG's Beyond Monks and RPGObjects' martial arts systems.
 

Kuld

Explorer
The way I handle it is by creating an occidental style hand to hand martial art. Even if there are no actual historical examples of it (in RL), it’s easier to for the players to believe in a campaign were you don’t want any eastern influence. Still a wee bit uncomfortable I’ll admit, but when a player wants to play a monk I won’t say no.
 

iwatt

First Post
Klaus said:
I am on Mouseferatu's side on this one. Different fluff = non-Oriental class. Case in point (from the Fiery Dragon website article I wrote in 2004):

Very Nice.

I like what you did. But it did involve you:

1) changing the monk weapons
2) Writing excellent "fluff" text to support the crunch. :D This is something I myself enjoy doing, but some other people don't.


Thing is, my biggest beef with the monk is the Lawful descriptor. I just don't like it. I'd rather have the monk's natural weapons gain x3 critical multiplier, or gain a 19-20 threshold (that stacked with Imp. Crit.). I also don't like the must be Lawful requirement, but that was hand waved IMC a long time ago.

But my point still stands. The monk in the PHB comes with an intrinsic flavor that a DM must work against to overcome. The same holds true to the Paladin, except that the default setting is Medieval Europe (with politically correctness :p ) and not Oriental. Therfore, the monk is the class that sticks out.
 

iwatt

First Post
Kuld said:
The way I handle it is by creating an occidental style hand to hand martial art. Even if there are no actual historical examples of it (in RL), it’s easier to for the players to believe in a campaign were you don’t want any eastern influence. Still a wee bit uncomfortable I’ll admit, but when a player wants to play a monk I won’t say no.


I've always liked the "feral" martial artist. Kinda of like Tarzan. He learned by watching the beasts around him, and mimicking theri attacks. :D But this also implies a radical shift to change class skills. Although Slow Fall actually makes sense for the Lord of the Jungle :D (slow fall doesn't make much sense for a Dwarven master of Head butts though :) ).

When I change a monk's flavor, I usually have to look at each of the following list of abilities and see which to keep, change, etc..


Still Mind
Ki Strike (Magic)
Slow Fall
Purity of Body
Ki Strike (Lawful)
Wholeness of Body
Diamond Body
Abundant Step
Diamond Soul
Quivering Palm
Ki Strike (Adamantine)
Timeless Body
Tongue of the Sun and the Moon
Empty Body
Perfect Self.

Those are a lot of things to retcon, "explain fluff-wise" or even replace with a blanced abilty.
 

Storm Raven

First Post
Li Shenron said:
Yes but the monk flavor (and to some extent, even the mechanics) are pretty much built around the oriental martial traditions.

Western unarmed martial traditions which I know are limited to ancient greek wrestling. Otherwise it's armed combat.

Read up on Savate, Pankration, Sambo, Boxing, and so on.
 

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