D&D 5E I hate rapiers. Do you?

[Warpiglet]

If it helps, bronze age thrusting swords are referred to as rapiers by historians/archaalogists, and they have about as much to do with Renaissance rapier as the arquebus has with an M-16.

And the rapier does show up in the hands of the occasional foppish nobleman in Conan stories. Likewise, the swordplay of the Fafhrd & Gray Mouser stories is told in very latter day fencing terms (Fritz Leiber was himself a fencer), so despite its early iron/bronze age tech, it has a very picaresque, swashbuckling feel.

So it's not really out of line for a rapier to show up in muscular, savage, bare chest, bare breast fantasy (otherwise known as "the best kind"). But like you, when the entire party becomes default dex fighters, it's tedious and stretches what I want from my fantasy tea party all out of shape.

Yes, that does in fact help. I will read up about. It might help me not be distracted and keep the suspension of disbelief (related to my magical tea party land)

 

[Mercule]

What is a bit odd to me is someone going with a rapier but being decked out to fight knights otherwise. It seems anachronistic to the point of distraction for me. Firearms leave me cold as well.

This is merely personal taste. I want heads to roll, mead to quaff and so forth. I am not against someone playing a swashbuckler in their campaign, or a Samurai or whatever. Variety keeps the game alive.

I just don't want your chocolate in my peanut butter. Well, maybe it would actually taste good. Hell, I don't know. I merely dislike the weapon (rapier) being taken due to its advantages despite incongruent/anachronistic imagery with most characters in setting I am familiar with.

Its just taste. But if we pull at the thread to hard I might see my beloved greatsword stripped from the game. What time frame are we pretending to be in anyway?

I can agree with a lot of your points, here, but the highlighted piece is what really caught my eye.

As much as I say that D&D implies a pseudo-medieval setting, that's not strictly true. It implies a setting that's inspired by a pseudo-medieval sensibility. It also mixes in quite a bit of Conan, sci-fi, and other related (sub)genres. If you throw in everything that's in the PHB, you're left with the hub of civilization looking a bit like (if you squint) what the mid-to-late Renaissance may have been like if gunpowder had never been introduced, along with a few other scientific advances.

In that setting, it probably does make sense for people to be using broadswords/rapiers against fully armored foes. The metalworking technology has advanced enough to make it possible without the factors that discouraged it coming into play. The argument about whether the rapier actually works better against chinks in armor than a longsword works as a can opener may see the same sort of debate as whether hard or soft martial arts are better or a revolver or semi-automatic pistol are better.

Spells would be a major factor, though, and I could see how just one fireball per day would totally change the nature of battle. That's a whole different conversation, though, and more akin to "What would things look like if it took the same amount of time to master a cannon as to become a surgeon?"

Anyway, that's my take on the "reality" of the D&D implied setting. If you want to do more Conan, then definitely scratch off a few items in the equipment list. I'd play in that sort of game.

If you want firearms, then add a few items. But, if you want firearms, then you're doing it wrong and I'm going to call WotC so they know where to send the SWAT team.

 

[Satyrn]

View attachment 81911

Now I really want to use Lego for D&D minis!

 

[CydKnight]

I doubt it makes any difference to anyone in this thread who does not like the rapier, including me, but I feel it should be pointed out that the rapier does "piercing" damage according to 5E rules which would seem to further separate them from all other swords since they all do "slashing" damage.

So does a finesse weapon that does "piercing" damage really deserve to have the same damage output as a "slashing" longsword and more than the "slashing" scimitar and shortsword (d6)? I suppose that depends on the person but I don't see it.

 

[Blue]

Is it okay to choose the third option just because I like to eat paste? Must I also like rapiers?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I like things that are well represented in swords and sorcery by default. Note there is no katana but we can "make" it by renaming something we find on the weapons list. Likewise, monk weapons.

What is a bit odd to me is someone going with a rapier but being decked out to fight knights otherwise. It seems anachronistic to the point of distraction for me. Firearms leave me cold as well.

This is merely personal taste. I want heads to roll, mead to quaff and so forth. I am not against someone playing a swashbuckler in their campaign, or a Samurai or whatever. Variety keeps the game alive.

I just don't want your chocolate in my peanut butter. Well, maybe it would actually taste good. Hell, I don't know. I merely dislike the weapon (rapier) being taken due to its advantages despite incongruent/anachronistic imagery with most characters in setting I am familiar with.

Its just taste. But if we pull at the thread to hard I might see my beloved greatsword stripped from the game. What time frame are we pretending to be in anyway?

In my magic tea party with fairies and talking bears, we use big tough weapons or daggers. We throw our bones on the floor for the dogs running around the hall while we are eating. We crush helmets with maces. We don't do a lot of fencing.

But I respect other people's fundamental right to do so!

But I still say blech

This brings to mind an idea that a friend and I had, recently.

Perhaps the game should have different weapon and armor tables for different sub-genres of fantasy?

So, since I don't play "sword and sorcery", Conan-esque, DnD, and you do, we would have somewhat different tables.

Since I do like my flavors mixing, and enjoy worlds that have Conan, and Dumas, and Arabian Nights, and Incan temples, and Sikh-esque holy warriors, and Eastern Aestetics and monks, and Sigurd and Beowulf, and etc, all spread out in their regions, but connected in many places by trade, exploration, and sometimes war, just like IRL Middle Ages, I'd have every option available. But it doesn't hurt me if you only use the S&S table, or the Primeval Table, or whatever.

I get where you're coming from though.

if a character at your table picks up a rapier, in the meantime, try just imagining it as a particularly well balanced and light later Viking style sword or Celtic sword. A bit to long for easy dual wielding, but lighter, more precise, and balanced closer to the hand than a longsword. Not so much a class of weapon, as a variation on a class of weapon, made for the PC by a relative or friend bc they were smaller/less strong blah blah we've all read this book or whatever.

Also see Arya Stark in Game of Thrones, and Needle, her sword. It is of a make not used in that region, but perfect for her, and requires a tutor from abroad for her to learn to use it properly!

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Oh! I could also imagine a small culture (gnomes or Halflings) crafting thinner, lighter, more lightly balanced versions of a longsword, and a nimble and maybe runty human picking them up as a perfect weapon for them! I'd play that character in a more S&S style game.

 

[Warpiglet]

This brings to mind an idea that a friend and I had, recently.

Perhaps the game should have different weapon and armor tables for different sub-genres of fantasy?

So, since I don't play "sword and sorcery", Conan-esque, DnD, and you do, we would have somewhat different tables.

Since I do like my flavors mixing, and enjoy worlds that have Conan, and Dumas, and Arabian Nights, and Incan temples, and Sikh-esque holy warriors, and Eastern Aestetics and monks, and Sigurd and Beowulf, and etc, all spread out in their regions, but connected in many places by trade, exploration, and sometimes war, just like IRL Middle Ages, I'd have every option available. But it doesn't hurt me if you only use the S&S table, or the Primeval Table, or whatever.

I get where you're coming from though.

if a character at your table picks up a rapier, in the meantime, try just imagining it as a particularly well balanced and light later Viking style sword or Celtic sword. A bit to long for easy dual wielding, but lighter, more precise, and balanced closer to the hand than a longsword. Not so much a class of weapon, as a variation on a class of weapon, made for the PC by a relative or friend bc they were smaller/less strong blah blah we've all read this book or whatever.

Also see Arya Stark in Game of Thrones, and Needle, her sword. It is of a make not used in that region, but perfect for her, and requires a tutor from abroad for her to learn to use it properly!

This is EXACTLY what I decided earlier today. If someone wants it it is there. If the DM does not want it for the campaign, he can tell you which tables are available. I believe that would really solve any problem with flavor mixing and world building. A less parsimonious solution would be to tell players weapon by weapon what is or is not admissible.

You have a good idea there.

 

[BookBarbarian]

This brings to mind an idea that a friend and I had, recently.

Perhaps the game should have different weapon and armor tables for different sub-genres of fantasy?

I've seen a few attempts at this. Here is my favorite stuff for a Dark Ages/Viking campaign http://dnd-edit.tumblr.com/search/dark+ages

 

[Hussar]

1e creatures with AC.3 or better in the MM:
Aerial Servant
Anhkheg (main body)
Ant, giant
Beetle, giant - boring
Beetle, giant - rhinoceros
Beetle, giant - stag
Beetle, giant - water
Beholder(main body)
Brownie
Bulette (main body)
Carrion Crawler (main body)
Chimera (dragon head if memory serves)
Crab, giant
Demons, Devils, Demon/Devil Lords - almost all were well into negatives, a few at AC.0, so way better than a mere AC.3
Dinosaurs: Ankylosaurus, Archelon Ischyras, Monoclonius, Paleoscincus, Pentaceratops, Stegosarus, Styracosarus, Triceratops
Dragons - ALL
Dragonne (main body if memory serves)
Dragon Turtle
Efreeti
Elementals - Air/Earth/Fire/Water
Ettin
Gar, giant
Ghost (if you weren't ethereal)
Giants: Cloud/Fire/Stone/Storm
Golem, Iron
Gorgon
Griffin
Groaning spirit (AKA: Banshee)
Imp
Invisible stalker
Ki-Rin
Lamia
Lich
Lizard, fire
Werebear
Weretiger
Men - were listed as: ** - could be anything. Depended upon how the DM armed them
Morkoth
Mummy
Naga, guardian
Neo-Otyugh
Ogre (chieftan)
Otyugh
Piercers (all sizes)
Pseudo-Dragon
Quasit
Rakshasa
Remorhaz (head & main body if I recall)
Roper
Rust Monster
Sahuagin (baron/noble, king, prince)
Salamander (forget wich part)
Scorpion, giant
Sea Lion (forget wich part)
Shambling mound
Snake, giant - amphisbaena
Spectre
Sphinxes - ALL varieties
Squid, giant (main body)
Tick, giant
Titans - all sizes
Trapper
Treant - all sizes
Triton leaders (AC.4 or better)
Turtle, giant - sea & snapper
Umber Hulk
Unicorn
Vampire
Will-o-wisp
Wyvern
Xorn

Your right, virtually nothing in the game had AC.3 or better. And certainly nothing commonly encountered....
Would you like me to compile you a list of AC.3 or better foes from MM2 & the Fiend Folio?

As for never using anything but a Longsword? Speed factor - short swords (and daggers) were faster & faily common as magic items. Class restrictions - not everyone could use longswords....

Yup, on that list, how many of those are common or uncommon? Devils, Demons, beholders, nearly everything on your list is rare or very rare. True, not all. The beetles are common or uncommon. Surprisingly some of the smaller dragons are only uncommon A couple of the smaller giants also are uncommon.

But, out of the 350 monsters in the 1e monster manual, even if we include everything on your list, only about 1/4 to 1/3 of monsters have AC's of 3 or less, and nearly all of those are the rarest monsters in the game. Conspicuously absent from that list are all the humanoids, for example.

So, yup, I'm going to stand by my point here. Most of the monsters in AD&D had AC's worse than 3. And longswords were by far the most commonly used weapons (obviously by those that can use them).