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I hope its not just me...

Belaugured DM

First Post
A bunch of excellent points have been made. I will attempt to address a few without going quote crazy here. First yes I am aware with the penchant for balance that 4e professes I would be unnecessarily handicapping casters if I tinker only with them. Therefore I am thinking more and more of a MP or Point system for at wills in general. I am also looking at relative spell strength in previous versions vs 4e as a factor. If its a question of resource management I do believe that the payoff for limited resources has to be more bang for your buck when you unload. As for the crossbow argument I do understand it, but I am from the school of thought that if you blow it all in one shot you deserve to be stuck with your hands on your *ahem* crossbow for a good while. I am definitely looking to give a little more resource wise though as many have mentioned since I don’t want to drive people off casters I am just going for a different feel. I am still tinkering away but I really appreciate the input! Several of your ideas are already shared by me on the matter but several have been food for thought and are definitely shaping how I ultimately craft any system I decide to go with. I may decide to go for balance and nerf everybody’s at wills en masse in the end to restore balance and also get away from the "warcrafty" feel. I think that having to use your noggin to enhance the effects of a basic attack helps put role-play back into the game a bit more anyhow. It also promotes creativity that the spamming or the overuse of at wills cannot.

Thanks to all for the feedback so far !
 

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Alex319

First Post
A bunch of excellent points have been made. I will attempt to address a few without going quote crazy here. First yes I am aware with the penchant for balance that 4e professes I would be unnecessarily handicapping casters if I tinker only with them. Therefore I am thinking more and more of a MP or Point system for at wills in general.

Correct, but even with this change you are still nerfing casters because a caster's basic attack is going to be weaker than a fighter's basic attack because the caster's basic attack is going to be off a non-primary attack stat. Fortunately this problem is very easy to fix just by letting everyone use their primary attack stat for basic attacks.

I am also looking at relative spell strength in previous versions vs 4e as a factor. If its a question of resource management I do believe that the payoff for limited resources has to be more bang for your buck when you unload. As for the crossbow argument I do understand it, but I am from the school of thought that if you blow it all in one shot you deserve to be stuck with your hands on your *ahem* crossbow for a good while.

It's not an issue of "blowing it all in one shot". If the combat lasts X rounds, and you have Y power uses during the encounter, you will be forced to use a basic attack (X-Y) times, regardless of whether you blow all your power uses at the beginning or spread them out.

I am definitely looking to give a little more resource wise though as many have mentioned since I don’t want to drive people off casters I am just going for a different feel. I am still tinkering away but I really appreciate the input! Several of your ideas are already shared by me on the matter but several have been food for thought and are definitely shaping how I ultimately craft any system I decide to go with. I may decide to go for balance and nerf everybody’s at wills en masse in the end to restore balance and also get away from the "warcrafty" feel.

If you're nerfing everyone's at-wills, are you also going to nerf the monsters' at-wills?

I think that having to use your noggin to enhance the effects of a basic attack helps put role-play back into the game a bit more anyhow. It also promotes creativity that the spamming or the overuse of at wills cannot.

How can you "use your noggin to enhance the effects of a basic attack"? And why couldn't you "use your noggin to enhance the effects of your at-wills" in the same way?
 

Belaugured DM

First Post
Ok well, as to the point of unnecessarily nerfing caster basic attacks I must admit it’s a good one I hadn’t thought of. Luckily for me those who pointed it out also came up with an easy fix.

With regard to "blowing it all in one shot" - I think this is more likely an issue if restrictions were on daily use as opposed to encounter use. Yes I am aware of the fact that you still have x uses vs y rounds of combat. To me however that’s why its a question of resource management and picking and choosing when and where you want to unload your arcane goodies. Again - I know many simply don’t like that at all but, as I said I am looking for like minded folks to chip in here or at least those open to accepting that some might be ok with that concept of magic use.

Regarding nerfing monster at wills, no I had no intention of nerfing the monster at wills. I am not trying to promote fairness in all its aspects. I am aware I am making life tougher for my players this way. They know I am a rotten nasty no-goodnick dirty DM anyhow. They never send me Christmas cards, or thank you notes but they seem to enjoy my game and keep coming back to the table. If it makes things too unbalanced where I am killing PCs through lack of foresight that’s one thing but I don’t think that’s going to happen. If it does I will humbly accept a few "I told you so" comments however and readjust.

Regarding the use of brain sweat to enhance an attack or if you prefer - using your noggin terminology. As I see it, again this is only my humble opinion, but as I see it the at wills act almost as a crutch or impediment to roleplay. Especially for newer players, the "combat flair" or little extra bonus benefit they provide make them an easy substitute to thinking about how to use basic attacks in creative ways. Basically what I am saying is if you view tactics as an individual players use of abilities, versus strategy as the party's cohesive use of abilities, the at wills as written become almost a default. I have seen this work for and against new players. For some who are still learning their abilities I have seen them try much more exciting, swashbuckling or tactical maneuvers just using a basic attack and asking - can I do / try this? (I always say yes, but...) For others who are still new I have seen them simply use Twin Strike (for example) every. single. round. ad nauseum. That in effect becomes their tactical choice. Now I know this is a player issue, and some players are just more creative than others. What I am trying to say though is, if I take some of that away, what happens then? Do players have to become a little more creative or daring? I think they very well might, it's been my experience from playing lots of 1e and 2e that you had to at least.

With regards to the 2 Old school Wiz variants, both are good ideas. Both have some things I am thinking a lot about however. I don’t know if I like the idea of encounter refreshers for encounter powers or at wills that much for arcane casters. I may allow it but require an hour of study lets say. I don’t know yet. That of course introduces the random encounter factor which may be a fun idea.

I am definitely leaning towards a total daily use paradigm vs encounter or at will. That makes it a little more old school and also makes use of resources a little more interesting, simpler to track, and more old school imo. I both like and dislike the idea of MP because that gives back something to the players if you relegate a regain of MP through use of an action point lets say. The problem is now I am creating bookkeeping. If I use MP it’s almost definitely going to be a daily limit because that definitely eases bookkeeping.

Again, I really appreciate the help guys. You're all giving me a lot to think about even the dissenters. You have also pointed out things I may miss and I appreciate that.

Thank You!
 

Rel

Liquid Awesome
You won't hear me saying that 4e shouldn't be house ruled. Because I've done it. Significantly.

However, IMHO, most of the house rules that I've implemented feel like they are working with the core system rather than against it. And your basic idea here feels like it is struggling against the rest of the system.

I think that you may have a much easier time of things trying 3.5 with some house rules to capture some of the 4eisms that you like because the core system there is already built along the lines you seem to favor.

Finally I will say that my experience with At Will powers in 4e is that there is not a huge amount of focus on them. What I mean is that I don't think you'll see players shooting Magic Missile every round because their Encounter and Daily powers will be used a lot.
 

Belaugured DM

First Post
Hi Rel,

I actually hoped you would chime in. I am using your wounding system in fact. That was one of the things that helped me cope with the idea of healing surges that 4e implemented. I am somewhat distressed to hear you say "go 3.5 young man" (not literally).

So far from my limited exposure 4e has a lot to reccomend it. I really really like its realative simplicity. I just dont know if I am keen on how they are dealing with magic, or for that matter the unified exp (someone told me thats a 3.5 thing tho) or some of the kooky ideas of "ballance" they bring to the table.

I tend to like to make things a lil more challenging and I know that if I can hammer something out it will both restore some of the flavor I want and make it a little harder perhaps, but more fun imo.

On that note what are your feelings on the unified exp system? Personally I dont know that I like that at all. (Although someone told me 3.5 is to blame for that.)

Anyhow keep the commentary and hopefully suggestions coming all!

Thanks!
 

Rel

Liquid Awesome
I'll take your using of my Wounds system as a compliment. Please do let me know how it works for you.

I don't mean to be discouraging of your efforts here. And my opinions may not be all that terribly valid because we come at gaming from very different perspectives. I played 1e back when I was a kid in high school and abandoned it for Rolemaster because 1e seemed too simplistic and had no rules for non-combat skills. After a dozen years of RM (with a few other systems mixed in along the way) 3e came out and brought me back to D&D. I never played 2e at all. I liked 3e a whole lot. It's a bit surprising to me that I like 4e even better.

Since you say that you have very little experience with 3e then I'll represent to you that the magic system there clings much closer to the 1e paradigm than 4e does. You mention that you are starting to play in a 3.5 game so you are probably getting a look at what I mean by that. To me, how a system handles magic is a BIG deal from a mechanics standpoint. When you start mucking with some of those core assumptions then that can propogate through the rest of the system in unforeseen ways that may have some dire consequences for your game.

If you are fine with all the analysis necessary to identify these issues before they arise, or patient enough to deal with them when they come up, then kudos to you. I'm too lazy and impatient for that and I kind of demand that my game system start delivering up fun right from the start without a ton of extra work on my part. For my part, 4e is about 80-90% of the way to where I want it to be, right off the shelf. And the extra 10-20% of the tweaking necessary (like my wounds system and other house rules) all felt pretty easy to implement and to guage the consequences of. By contrast it sounds to me that 4e isn't nearly that far along your acceptability spectrum.

But maybe I'm wrong about that. Can you indicate what parts of 4e seem to really appeal to you? Maybe I'm missing something that makes the underlying system a better starting point than it seems to me at first blush.

Anyway, as far as the unified XP mechanics go, not only do I prefer that to the 1e way of doing things, I've tossed XP entirely from my 4e game. To me I see no reason to retain it at all. I simply have the PC's gain a level whenever I feel that they have earned it as a group. So far that has been about 1 level every three sessions and it's working out fine. Plus this way is much easier and, since the PC's are doing exactly the kinds of things within the campaign that I want them to, there is no reason for me to leave a pile of points as an incentive to do otherwise.
 

Daniel D. Fox

Explorer
What you have proposed is far too difficult to crunch out.

Have players spend Healing Surges to use their At-Will Powers, and leave everything else intact. When they're out of Healing Surges, they must use Basic Attacks.

You would need to apply this roundly to all classes, whether they be Arcane, Divine or Martial simply due to balance issues.
 

Alex319

First Post


Regarding the use of brain sweat to enhance an attack or if you prefer - using your noggin terminology. As I see it, again this is only my humble opinion, but as I see it the at wills act almost as a crutch or impediment to roleplay. Especially for newer players, the "combat flair" or little extra bonus benefit they provide make them an easy substitute to thinking about how to use basic attacks in creative ways. Basically what I am saying is if you view tactics as an individual players use of abilities, versus strategy as the party's cohesive use of abilities, the at wills as written become almost a default. I have seen this work for and against new players. For some who are still learning their abilities I have seen them try much more exciting, swashbuckling or tactical maneuvers just using a basic attack and asking - can I do / try this? (I always say yes, but...) For others who are still new I have seen them simply use Twin Strike (for example) every. single. round. ad nauseum. That in effect becomes their tactical choice. Now I know this is a player issue, and some players are just more creative than others. What I am trying to say though is, if I take some of that away, what happens then? Do players have to become a little more creative or daring? I think they very well might, it's been my experience from playing lots of 1e and 2e that you had to at least.

I think I see what you're saying now, so let me try to restate it to make sure I understand.

You're saying that you want players to come up with actions that are not covered by the rules (for example, "I throw a rope at the opponent's feet to trip him.) This is commonly referred to as "stunting." You think that reducing the number and power of the at-will options the rules give players will encourage players to come up with more "stunt" type actions.

This makes perfect sense, and is a perfectly legitimate style of play. However, your post was a little confusing, because you refer to "enhancing the effect of a basic attack," which isn't what "stunting" is about at all. Or are you talking about using a basic attack and adding an improvised "stunt" type effect to it? If so, you're basically bringing back at-wills, because most at-wills are essentially basic attacks with some extra effect thrown in, you're just allowing players to decide what that effect is on the fly. So it's just an at-will with more versatility. I'm interested to see how well it works - is it a problem to constantly adjudicate new stunts every round? Or do players tend to find a stunt that works and use it repeatedly?

If I'm completely misunderstanding what you're saying, then we might be able to understand easier if you give us a specific example of how a player would do the "exciting, swashbuckling, or tactical maneuvers" with a basic attack that you are suggesting.

With regards to the 2 Old school Wiz variants, both are good ideas. Both have some things I am thinking a lot about however. I don’t know if I like the idea of encounter refreshers for encounter powers or at wills that much for arcane casters. I may allow it but require an hour of study lets say. I don’t know yet. That of course introduces the random encounter factor which may be a fun idea.

I am definitely leaning towards a total daily use paradigm vs encounter or at will. That makes it a little more old school and also makes use of resources a little more interesting, simpler to track, and more old school imo. I both like and dislike the idea of MP because that gives back something to the players if you relegate a regain of MP through use of an action point lets say. The problem is now I am creating bookkeeping. If I use MP it’s almost definitely going to be a daily limit because that definitely eases bookkeeping.

Again, I really appreciate the help guys. You're all giving me a lot to think about even the dissenters. You have also pointed out things I may miss and I appreciate that.

Thank You!

Interesting. So you're focusing more on resource management at the extended-rest-cycle level rather than resource management at the encounter level. One problematic possibility I see with that is that it further increases the incentive to "nova" with everything once and then take an extended rest, unless you provide some sort of urgency or a time limit.

And for the requiring an hour of study to get back encounter powers, that's a perfectly easy rule to implement - just say short rests take an hour instead of 5 minutes. (Although are you planning on doing that only for arcane characters and not martial characters? If so it seems like just a "mage-gimping" rule that will make people avoid playing mages.)
 

Belaugured DM

First Post
My use of the wounding system is a compliment of course, I havent had occasion to use it yet but the PCs are getting into more and more combat now that the campaign is flowing and I will let you know on that Rel.

The reason I am semi-focused on how to make 4e work for me so much at the moment because if I can actually turn it into something workable there are imo 3 big payoffs. 1 - Support, obviously they have just come out with this system and that’s what they will be supporting for awhile so it makes it easier to DM with a ton of (supposed) support coming down the pike. I say supposed because I am not entirely happy with the relative incompleteness of the PH I which I view as intentional oversight on the company's part to make it easier to sell supplements, so that’s actually a mixed bag. 2 - Ease of use, they have managed to simplify quite a few things which makes running a game rather easier and also allows for what I see as a fair amount of customization to actually make it fit with your views on D&D. If you have a fair amount of grounding in older versions with at least an idea of what you want to achieve I think that 4e being streamlined for ease of use helps you out a lot, even if you customize quite a bit. 3 - Improved tactical emphasis. To me with the way 4e stresses miniatures and PC and Monster roles (controller, artillery etc.) it brings a bit more of a tactical decision game feel to combat. I like that quite a bit, with a quick review of the 4e system and a basic grasp of tactics, you can easily design and make for some rather interesting combat scenarios.

Alex, Regarding Stunting or "improvised At-Wills" The answer to your question whether I am looking for either or in some way by limiting the use of at wills is yes to both. Yes, I have had a fair amount of stunting performed, a few called shots here and there, and yes I am looking for players to create their own improvised at wills I suppose. This brings combat to life in a way that the simple "I swing my sword at monster x ...." basic attack grind cannot, but also it gets away from the "Twin strike, Twin strike, Twin strike...." (might as well be playing Warcraft and hitting your 3 key) feel as well. I am trying for a mix and balance of these things I suppose.

The more and more I look at my proposed fix for casters, the more and more I think that limiting at will use in general is going to have to be part of my overall plan for the reasons stated above.

Good Point on the "Nova, then taking extended rests" thing, I may not run into the problem as a whole however since I have quite a few episodes where a sense of urgency is kind of the norm. The PCs will be getting harried and chased a lot as they try to achieve some missions and simply need to move fast to effect a few rescues in others. I can see how it might be a problem though if you don’t have a legitimate reason to keep the party moving right along.

I also think I am going to make short rests an hour across the board. That makes sense and is fair to all concerned that way.

Moniker, Your suggestion on the healing surge mechanics for a MP system is exactly what I have in mind for a daily MP and power use system I think, I am just trying to see if as a give back if I should allow some form of "powers point" (sorry that sounds terrible I know) recovery system using action points, and or easing the restrictions on daily / encounter powers, since they will be on a daily resource management system.

In any case I should have something soon down for review, I just have been rather busy lately so haven’t gotten to work on it as much as I would have liked. Then you guys can rip me a new one (a good thing imo) by pointing out all the potential flaws and then hopefully I will have something pretty workable.

Thanks!
 
Last edited:

Sadrik

First Post
To echo Keterys, a crossbow and a magic missile are essentially the same thing.

To hit:
Crossbow: Dex+2 vs. AC
MM: Int vs. Reflex.
The +2 to proficiency vs. AC is on par with attacking a non-AC defense. In general, they progress at roughly the same rate.


Damage:
Crossbow: 1d8+Dex.
Magic Missile: 2d4+Int.
On average, the MM does 4+int, because you can't roll a 1, but you also are much less likely to roll a 4+4.
All things being equal this is not true. Shields add to both AC and REF. REF is the most difficult defense to hit.
 

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