Pathfinder 1E I just found a new stupid rule!

[Greenfield]

As I've mentioned before, we have a "game within the game" we play at my table, called "The stupidest rule I've ever heard of." I have a new contender.

In Pathfinder, when creating magic items, you can skip a prerequisite for the creation by accepting a 5 point penalty on the Spellcraft check (or whatever Skill check is called for.)

The section on creating items that describes "prerequisites" says that it's mainly the spell needed to go into the item.

So any Wizard can write a scroll of a spell they don't know and have no source for, then turn around and copy it into his/her spellbook.

Even if I want a spell effect that isn't in the book.

I guess that kind of bypasses any kind of "Research new spells" rules, doesn't it?

 

[ImperatorK]

Scrolls are spell-completion items.

 

[Sunseeker]

In a way, I could see this as the Wizard "inventing" a spell, even if it's one that exists.

 

[billd91]

Greenfield, you're missing an important caveat on skipping prerequisites:

"In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites." Core Rulebook p 549.

Scrolls are spell-completion items. You need to know the spell to make a scroll of it.

 

[Wycen]

Some months ago there was a thread at Paizo about this, though I suspect there are more than one over there.

Anyway, I posited the idea that with this rule you could create a magic item without spending any gold. There are other ways you could try to abuse it as well, but in part due to this and many other magic item creation issues that have cropped up in my recent games, I've come to the conclusion the magic item creation system needs to be completely redesigned or the DM must enforce his or her own system AND care about enforcing those rules.

But that's just me.

 

[Clyde Lee Graham]

Billd91 is correct, you have to meet the pre-reqs for potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion items. What this does mean, however, is that you can make most Wonderous items without needing the pre-req spells, nor do you need to meet the caster level requirements.

I believe that the thinking behind this was to allow you to try and make items, at risk. If you fail, you end up with a cursed item.

Unfortunately, it's possible to build an optimized character with a +22 to +24 in Spellcraft at level 3. Assuming you allow a crafter to take 10 (and by RAW, they can), that means that a crafter can casually hit +34 at third level. Assuming they have the time and the money, a third level character could, in fact, craft an Iron Flask.

The time and money requirements are BIG if's, though, so it's not as truly horrid as it sounds. I feel that this is one of those areas that they just didn't think through when they decided to get rid of XP costs, and added a chance of failure. In reality, there is no risk of failure, as it's trivial to keep a high enough spellcraft to ignore multiple requirements.

 

[N'raac]

The money is the real limit, in my view. That heavily optimized character has invested considerable resources in the ability to craft items at a much higher caster level than his own, and still needs the wealth to pay for the item in question - that Iron Flask still costs 85,000 gp.

 

[Clyde Lee Graham]

The money is the real limit, in my view. That heavily optimized character has invested considerable resources in the ability to craft items at a much higher caster level than his own, and still needs the wealth to pay for the item in question - that Iron Flask still costs 85,000 gp.

I agree with that, though I do think it's still a little too easy to get your spellcraft to the point that there is no risk of failure. I suppose the counter argument to that is that most players, confronted with a chance of failure, WON'T actually take the chance of losing their gold investment in the magic item.

 

[N'raac]

When the question of "Take 10" came up on the Pathfinder boards (I searched for that a while back), the official response was that it was intentional, that the crafters should be able to create items with confidence (much like every 20th meal at a restaurant will not be poisonous, however skilled the chef, every 20th magic item will not fail, however skilled the crafter), and that it was fully expected they would not attempt items they could not be confident would succeed.

I I have a 50/50 chance of success, what is the benefit of the Crafting feat? I can expect to spend the crafting cost twice, on average. I will take time crafting the item (and have to tie up my spell slots while I do so if I want the prereq's). Better to just buy the items.

 

[ggeilman]

Personally I am not all that worried about the spellcraft check in crafting items so while I don't often allow taking 10 on this I would. As long as they have the proper feats and spent the time and money that is all I am concerned. As others have mentioned the real limit is the cost in gold and none of my players is all that rich in the first place.