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Pathfinder 1E I just found a new stupid rule!

So what result do we want? A system that no one uses is useless. The RAW, which you are appropriately using as a baseline, assumes a thriving market in magical items, as you are pretty much assumed to be able to buy whatever you want to enhance your abilities, not work with what you find. Crafting cannot, then, be all that difficult or risky, or that marketplace would not be there.

Exactly. That was my point. Why even have the roll if there's no risk, or the risk will never be taken? Just set limits on what can and can't be accomplished, time and cost. Hence my suggestion to enforce caster level requirements (and the appropriate adjustments to items as needed to fit that).
 

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SkidAce

Legend
Supporter
IBased on the RAW, I can craft a Sword at 1st level, Craft it up to Masterwork (as a separate element) once I can reliably make that check, and then enchant it (or take Master Craftsman as a feat if I want to Craft magical items without being a spellcaster). So I can enhance that specific sword as I go along.


I don't think you can "craft" it up to masterwork after, only "magic" it up.


You can't add the masterwork quality to a weapon after it is created; it must be crafted as a masterwork weapon (see the Craft skill).


http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/equipment.html#_masterwork-weapons
 

Clyde Lee Graham said:
The problem with that is that the spellcraft roll is, for the most part, trivial... and in cases where there's a significant chance of failure, most players won't take the chance because a) most players are risk averse when it comes to gold or XP, and b) the failure (barring a GM really investing something into it) isn't interesting.

N'racc said:
And this is different from other PC abilities how, exactly? They aren't going to craft items they don't have the skill to craft. Even failing 2 rolls by 5 still leaves them ahead on a cash basis, and a failure slows, but does not end, progress. Handle Animal can fail, but it doesn't kill the animal or make it untrainable - it just means it will take longer to train it.

A failed Handle Animal roll, at the appropriate time, can completely change an encounter due to the animal misbehaving or not otherwise understanding. Failed social skill checks can introduce entirely new plot elements. A failed spellcraft check while crafting magical items can result in the loss of gold, and perhaps a cursed item that can be rather easily identified.

Maybe I'm not being as clear as I thought I was, but my basic complaint is that in this case, the failure just isn't that interesting.

When you dig down to the root of it, the magical item crafting feats basically allow one PC to exceed Wealth by Level by 25% (by the rules... I know a lot of GMs see WBL as a guideline). If that's all it really does, why roll at all? Heck, take 10 basically does that now... it's just that you need to sit and calculate the spell craft check first to see if you can craft the item with a take 10. Just enforce Caster Level instead and you get the same effect, but no math.
 

N'raac

First Post
I don't think you can "craft" it up to masterwork after, only "magic" it up.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/equipment.html#_masterwork-weapons

Missed that on my quick look at Craft - I was looking as it was the 3e rule. The sword itself is so trivial that making a new one once MW is a viable option seems less of a big deal.

Exactly. That was my point. Why even have the roll if there's no risk, or the risk will never be taken? Just set limits on what can and can't be accomplished, time and cost. Hence my suggestion to enforce caster level requirements (and the appropriate adjustments to items as needed to fit that).

Or maintain the current caster level, with the expectation that CL - 5, +5 for each missing prerequisite = spellcraft roll required to Take 10.

Under your system, would prerequisites be eliminated (opening up the ability to craft), would the caster need to be higher level to make up for missing prerequisites (moving items much more out of reach for a missing spell, say, or simply for crafting while on the road and wanting access to the spell slots - providing a considerable Crafting advantage to spontaneous Crafters who have the right spells - and also adding the math back in), or would the prerequisites be an absolute requirement, rather than something whose absence makes crafting more difficult? I suppose we could move prerequisites to be "the perfect tools", so you get a +2 Caster Level if you have all the right spells, instead of a penalty if you don't.

A failed Handle Animal roll, at the appropriate time, can completely change an encounter due to the animal misbehaving or not otherwise understanding. Failed social skill checks can introduce entirely new plot elements. A failed spellcraft check while crafting magical items can result in the loss of gold, and perhaps a cursed item that can be rather easily identified.

And a failed Spellcraft check at the appropriate time can also result in changes. Just like a failed Handle Animal roll to train the animal only imposes a delay (and just like I expect most trainers Take 10 anyway), a failed spellcraft roll to craft an object isn't likely to come up or cause any issues.

When you dig down to the root of it, the magical item crafting feats basically allow one PC to exceed Wealth by Level by 25% (by the rules... I know a lot of GMs see WBL as a guideline). If that's all it really does, why roll at all? Heck, take 10 basically does that now... it's just that you need to sit and calculate the spell craft check first to see if you can craft the item with a take 10. Just enforce Caster Level instead and you get the same effect, but no math.

As noted above, I think that also means trashing prerequisites, or we're back to math. Or we could just remove the roll, caster level and prereqisites from the crafting process entirely - if you have the appropriate Craft feat, you can Craft the object, as long as you take the time and provide the gold. Or we make the process much like other Craft skills - maybe you roll vs DC (set by caster level) each day of crafting and margin of success determines your progress. Fail by too much, and you have to invest in some more materials.

There's plenty of options. Making it match mundane crafting skills has some appeal in that a higher skill roll means faster crafting, and in being consistent with the mundane Craft rules. The present system provides for a lot less rolling and mathing out times, though, although you still need to math out the time, and possibly the cost if you deviate from standard items.

Finally, how does the feat apply to only one PC? The other party members help me out when they can, so why would I not also craft items for them? Whether I charge them cost and donate my time, charge the full market rate and get paid for my time, or negotiate a split of the savings so we both win, depending on the character's mindset. Better gear for the warrior means better protection for me!
 

brvheart

Explorer
I have always found that taking 10 or 20 as one of most gamey aspects that was ever introduced and rarely allow them. It allows no chance for failure or variables to happen. I also still use the old optional 3.0 rule of -10/+10 on a nat 1/20 on skill checks. I would rather just enforce level requirements on crafting items and eliminate the spellcraft roll if need be. If you take the time, meet all the requirements and spend the gold why is this needed? To me it is just another gamey way of players making items that they don't meet the requirements to make.
As for WBL, it should be calculated at the market value of items so creating items should not allow players to surpass this. Just my 2 coppers.
 

Finally, how does the feat apply to only one PC? The other party members help me out when they can, so why would I not also craft items for them? Whether I charge them cost and donate my time, charge the full market rate and get paid for my time, or negotiate a split of the savings so we both win, depending on the character's mindset. Better gear for the warrior means better protection for me!

I don't have the book in front of me, but the crafting section in Ultimate Equipment clarifies that crafting feats can only allow one PC to exceed wealth by level by 25%. It doesn't have to be the PC with the feat, but only one PC can benefit. If more than one PC wants to benefit, more PCs should take crafting feats.

That seemed rather bogus to me, especially as how RAW only really matters in organized play, and there is no crafting in Pathfinder Society play... but SKR was quite clear in the paizo forums that this was the intent and the guidelines of WBL are rules, not guidelines.
 

N'raac

First Post
I don't have the book in front of me, but the crafting section in Ultimate Equipment clarifies that crafting feats can only allow one PC to exceed wealth by level by 25%. It doesn't have to be the PC with the feat, but only one PC can benefit. If more than one PC wants to benefit, more PCs should take crafting feats.

While I'm interested in the cite, I agree this converts the feats from "crafting items" to "enhancing wealth", so why not just have a single feat that enhances a character's wealth by 25% and let the player decide whether this is by crafting their own gear, shrewd bargaining, shoplifting, generous friends or relatives, or whatever. Does the typical Wizard have 25% more wealth than the WBL because he gets Scribe Scroll as a L1 bonus feat?

Ultimately, though, the Craft feats enhance caster or team power by letting them have more gear than they otherwise would have.

AH HA!
Ultimate Campaign said:
Adjusting Character Wealth by Level

You can take advantage of the item creation rules to hand-craft most or all of your magic items. Because you've spent gp equal to only half the price of these items, you could end up with more gear than what the Character Wealth by Level table suggests for you. This is especially the case if you're a new character starting above 1st level or one with the versatile Craft Wondrous Item feat. With these advantages, you can carefully craft optimized gear rather than acquiring GM-selected gear over the course of a campaign. For example, a newly created 4th-level character should have about 6,000 gp worth of gear, but you can craft up to 12,000 gp worth of gear with that much gold, all of it taking place before the character enters the campaign, making the time-cost of crafting irrelevant.

Some GMs might be tempted to reduce the amount or value of the treasure you acquire to offset this and keep your overall wealth in line with the Character Wealth by Level table. Unfortunately, that has the net result of negating the main benefit of crafting magic items—in effect negating your choice of a feat. However, game balance for the default campaign experience expects you and all other PCs to be close to the listed wealth values, so the GM shouldn't just let you craft double the normal amount of gear. As a guideline, allowing a crafting PC to exceed the Character Wealth by Level guidelines by about 25% is fair, or even up to 50% if the PC has multiple crafting feats.

If you are creating items for other characters in the party, the increased wealth for the other characters should come out of your increased allotment. Not only does this prevent you from skewing the wealth by level for everyone in the party, but it encourages other characters to learn item creation feats.

Example: The Character Wealth By Level table states that an 8th-level character should have about 33,000 gp worth of items. Using the above 25% rule, Patrick's 8th-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item is allowed an additional 8,250 gp worth of crafted wondrous items. If he uses his feat to craft items for the rest of the party, any excess value the other PCs have because of those items should count toward Patrick's additional 8,250 gp worth of crafted items.

The opening concern seems more for new characters ("well, I use all my WBL to craft specific items, ignoring the fact that my character likely has had other items, and did not have these feats throughout his career") than for the group as a whole. It seems reasonable to limit pre-startup use of these feats.

The latter parts seem geared for the group as a whole, throughout the game. That said, if the group doubles their WBL by exclusively using Crafted arms and armor, then will they not be out of luck in respect of a lot of other items? No Wands of CLW, no stat enhancers, no cloaks of resistance, rings of protection, no potions or scrolls, etc. Seems like a group that will be very focused - quite tough when their items are useful, not so much when they need something from another area.
 
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For my games, I've only every really considered WBL as an issue when creating a new character at higher levels. Otherwise, I just glance at it occasionally and make sure that the players aren't too far behind or ahead of the curve and adjust the treasure I hand out accordingly. So, yes, I agree with you. Ultimately, the amount of treasure the party gets is under the control of the GM, so I'm not sure why they felt a need to draw this particular line in the sand.

Not to mention the fact that not all magic items actually make a PC more effective in regards to ECL/CR... sure, a magic sword makes you measurably more effective in combat, but a Blessed Book, or an Efficient Quiver?

And, as you mentioned, then there's consumables... they only add to your wealth by level until they're used.
 

N'raac

First Post
I find it useful to track where the players are compared to their expected WBL, and I would consider it underhanded to short the characters on treasure because someone had crafting feats instead of, say, feats that add combat effectiveness. But I agree it's far from a perfect measure.

If WBL will be enforced, should the maximum spent on a single item also be enforced (that's an issue for our 2nd level Ranger with a +1 sword - and he took that from an enemy)? Do we prohibit the players from an unequal division of loot? Does the charater who burns through magic ammunition, alchemist's fire, holy water, scrolls, wands and potions get gifted with more cash to make up for that, while the character who invests in permanent items is forced to subsidize him?

Even that Magic Sword is not automatic. Would you rather have a +1 Holy Undead Bane Ghost Touch sword, or a +5 sword? Depends on whether I'm playing Against the Giants or Ghost Story!
 

brvheart

Explorer
I think most DMs only use WBL as a guide to see how the players are doing. That is how I use it anyway. If they are way behind I try and add some treasure to some encounters. It is as said not a perfect system, but is better than nothing. On the same token I don't want players to get too far ahead of it either. If one player has 1.5 WBL and another has .5, then some readjustment needs to be considered depending on the circumstances. Some times what it is matters also. I am less concerned if a player has an expensive hammock that helps with sleep than a +3 sword. And to answer your question 25% is presumed to be in disposable items. Some will use more than others obviously. For instance in one of my games I have an 8th level alchemist who is very effective at 8800 GP while the Wiz/Druid has WBL and is not as powerful after an audit. I am not going to adjust because I don't need to. She has a lot of items that don't add to her effectiveness as a character.
 

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