I know gaming fiction has a bad reputation, but...

[CruelSummerLord]

(NOTE TO MODERATORS: I don't know if this thread is on-topic or not, but it seemed like an appropriate place to put it, since it has to do with plots and places, and many of the posters would know what I'm trying to get at.)

Gaming fiction, whether rightly or wrongly, gets a very bad reputation for a variety of reasons, one of which is that a lot of it just isn't that good. That said, where is it written that gaming fiction has to suck by default, or that it's all going to be hack work to begin with?

Has there ever been an effort to try and expand gaming fiction beyond your standard fantasy plots, in an attempt to show what the world is like beyond the standard band of adventurers? Couldn't, for instance, The Count of Monte Cristo or War and Peace have been told in a fantasy setting, with orcs, elves and wizards, with as much effort put into the characters and the plot as into the setting or the "mechanics" of the world itself.

Of course, one might wonder why this is necessary, and why I would bother to add D&D conventions to my story.

The fact is, for whatever reason, Gary Gygax and his successors created a unique fantasy mythology, one that I have, admittedly, fallen in love with. The demihuman racess, the monsters, the medieval technology, everything about it fires my imagination and gets my creativity going. As a writer and a worldbuilder, it appeals to me immensely. I don't game, and I don't need to-I'm both the DM and the players, and I have a rich fantasy experience all my own.

If you've seen my work at Canonfire, you may have noticed that a lot of it goes toward fleshing out the actual setting, how it works, the societies, histories and cultures of the various races and countries, and everything in between. While I did this partly to offer ideas and fodder to any DMs and players out there, I also did it partly to develop the world of Greyhawk for its own sake. Similarly, I've put a lot of effort into fleshing out the unique characters I've created, to make sure they can stand on their own, apart from the fantasy tropes.

Besides, who says gaming fiction necessarily has to apply to a band of bold adventurers and their dragon-slaying heroics? It can, of course, but genres ranging from romance to drama to spy thrillers to murder mysteries could also fit in here too.

The Bridges of Madison County might center around a lonely noblewoman who succumbs to the charms of a wandering bard, The Outsiders might center around the problems faced by a street gang of thieves forced to flee when one of them murders a cruel dwarven noble, James Bond or Sherlock Holmes might have their own equivalents intriguing with rival elven kingdoms or tracking down the assassins who murdered the gnomish ambassador. This is not to say that these exact stories would be retold or otherwise ripped off from the originals-I'm just using them as examples to show what kind of stories could be told.

I know how crazy this sounds, and I know it's highly unlikely I'd ever get to publish anything like this, not least due to copyright issues, but I just don't think gaming fiction has to limit itself to the stereotype of mediocre work that's gotten it such a bad reputation.

Again, my apologies if this is off topic. I'm just throwing out some ideas here to try and get some response.

 

[Loonook]

(NOTE TO MODERATORS: I don't know if this thread is on-topic or not, but it seemed like an appropriate place to put it, since it has to do with plots and places, and many of the posters would know what I'm trying to get at.)

Gaming fiction, whether rightly or wrongly, gets a very bad reputation for a variety of reasons, one of which is that a lot of it just isn't that good. That said, where is it written that gaming fiction has to suck by default, or that it's all going to be hack work to begin with?

Has there ever been an effort to try and expand gaming fiction beyond your standard fantasy plots, in an attempt to show what the world is like beyond the standard band of adventurers? Couldn't, for instance, The Count of Monte Cristo or War and Peace have been told in a fantasy setting, with orcs, elves and wizards, with as much effort put into the characters and the plot as into the setting or the "mechanics" of the world itself.

Of course, one might wonder why this is necessary, and why I would bother to add D&D conventions to my story.

The fact is, for whatever reason, Gary Gygax and his successors created a unique fantasy mythology, one that I have, admittedly, fallen in love with. The demihuman racess, the monsters, the medieval technology, everything about it fires my imagination and gets my creativity going. As a writer and a worldbuilder, it appeals to me immensely. I don't game, and I don't need to-I'm both the DM and the players, and I have a rich fantasy experience all my own.

If you've seen my work at Canonfire, you may have noticed that a lot of it goes toward fleshing out the actual setting, how it works, the societies, histories and cultures of the various races and countries, and everything in between. While I did this partly to offer ideas and fodder to any DMs and players out there, I also did it partly to develop the world of Greyhawk for its own sake. Similarly, I've put a lot of effort into fleshing out the unique characters I've created, to make sure they can stand on their own, apart from the fantasy tropes.

Besides, who says gaming fiction necessarily has to apply to a band of bold adventurers and their dragon-slaying heroics? It can, of course, but genres ranging from romance to drama to spy thrillers to murder mysteries could also fit in here too.

The Bridges of Madison County might center around a lonely noblewoman who succumbs to the charms of a wandering bard, The Outsiders might center around the problems faced by a street gang of thieves forced to flee when one of them murders a cruel dwarven noble, James Bond or Sherlock Holmes might have their own equivalents intriguing with rival elven kingdoms or tracking down the assassins who murdered the gnomish ambassador. This is not to say that these exact stories would be retold or otherwise ripped off from the originals-I'm just using them as examples to show what kind of stories could be told.

I know how crazy this sounds, and I know it's highly unlikely I'd ever get to publish anything like this, not least due to copyright issues, but I just don't think gaming fiction has to limit itself to the stereotype of mediocre work that's gotten it such a bad reputation.

Again, my apologies if this is off topic. I'm just throwing out some ideas here to try and get some response.

I believe that there are writers who work within the realms of fantasy who could easily fit what you're looking for; however, most use the tropes available in fantasy and those in other fictions to create a melange of fantasy fiction which fits... a lot of modern fantasy deals with elements of Victorian romance and style choices.

Hardboiled Fantasy - Plenty of it; probably the best known (though it doesn't necessarily fit the whole of hardboiled's tenets) would be Jim Butcher's Dresden Files or Simon R. Green's Nightside series.

Fantasy Spies - Look no further than Simon R. Green's Eddie Drood series. They're all fantasy satires of Bond titles and spy/detective novels.

High Intrigue - Though it is mostly fantastic elements and not full out-and-out fantasy you can find high intrigue and historical 'realism' in Stephenson's Baroque Cycle (a personal favorite from a few years ago which I picked up and read through waiting for the last of the books to reach the local library). The Cycle, with its intrigue, alchemy, the seeking of Solomon's Gold, and the Philosopher's Stone is very interesting.

Though some may not consider these 'gaming fiction', many of the ideas, character archetypes, and other details fit together pretty well into gaming tropes and a rich fantasy/fantastic realism which makes them interesting reads. If I sat down and thought harder I could probably get you more books to fit in with other archetypes. . . but I just don't feel like burning the time on it.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[Prisoner6]

There is some gaming fiction that has elevated itself above the pack. Raymond Feist's (Home | The Official Raymond E. Feist Website) RiftWar/Midkemia books started out as a homebrew game world, and eventually grew into its own game system.

Also, Elizabeth Moon's The Deed of Paksenarion (The Deed of Paksenarrion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) is considered (by some) to be a cut above the standard gaming fiction. (Note: Personally I thought it was awful, but it's somehow met with success).

So there are "non-suck" gaming fantasy books out there.

For the most part, however, I think that all the best authors have their own ideas that they want to explore. They don't want to be confied to somebody else's game world, say, or ideas about magic should work. In such cases the existing "game framework" just gets in the way of the story the writer wants to tell.

 

[Thanael]

I know how crazy this sounds, and I know it's highly unlikely I'd ever get to publish anything like this, not least due to copyright issues, but I just don't think gaming fiction has to limit itself to the stereotype of mediocre work that's gotten it such a bad reputation.

Not so crazy at all. I think some of the new Eberron novels would be to your liking. The Eberron setting itself did push for a wider spectrum of (sub)genres, trying to enable pulp-action and noir in a D&D universe. I think some of the novels are excellent: There's a whole series of murder mystery novels: the Lanternlight files, which i found very entertaining. I hear there's also a spy series but i havn't read it yet.

As for the copyright problems, check out Ravenloft's novels and NPCs, the whole setting if defined by pastiches.

 

[CruelSummerLord]

Thanks for the replies. My own gaming fiction would be standard swords and sorcery fare, I admit, albeit one where the characters are extensively developed, and as much effort is put into character development and getting to know them as people, as there is into the fight scenes. Since I'm writing original fiction here, as opposed to transcribing a game session, I figure things will flow better, in the sense that what works at the gaming table doesn't always work in narrative fiction, and vice versa. The fantasy anime Record of Lodoss War subscribes to a lot of gaming tropes, and was in fact based on the director's D&D campaign, but the execution was so well done and skilfully carried out that it's a masterpiece that can be enjoyed whether or not you're a gamer. Indeed, that's what I'd like to do-appeal to readers who may never play an RPG in their lives, but enjoy fantasy fiction nonetheless.

Granted, canon and continuity would be a problem-I'd prefer to work in the World of Greyhawk, and one where I did not have to adhere to any pre-written canon or continuity. Nor would I expect my work to become canon itself, the way it does in the Forgotten Realms-in keeping with the spirit of Greyhawk, while what I write might be used by DMs and players for fodder in their own campaigns, they and they alone decide what is "canon". It's the same tack I try to take in the articles I've submitted to Canonfire-I'm trying to develop the World of Greyhawk for its own sake, but at the same time offer fluff and other fodder DMs and players can use in their own campaigns if they see something they like.

 

[Insight]

One of the issues you're dealing with in genre fiction (which is a big umbrella, but includes basically anything that has a 'genre' - horror, fantasy, and sci-fi among them) is that you have a built-in audience, the most likely folks to buy your novel. This audience expects certain things from fantasy: elves, magic, a medieval setting, and so forth. These tropes come to identify the work as a genre story, and act as a sort of shorthand to enable the reader to grasp where your story is set.

The problem with fantasy tropes is a complex one. On the one hand, tropes, as I said, are an easy shorthand for fantasy readers to quickly identify things in your story, things they expect, like the aforementioned elves. A fantasy reader knows what an elf is, and has a built-in understanding (and expectation) of dwarves, dragons, magic, sorcerers, etc. On the other hand, tropes handcuff you as a writer. If all you do is go with established fantasy icons, your storytelling pallette is a rather limited one.

Going 'off the reservation', in terms of changing, adding, or removing some fantasy tropes, is a welcome change for any prospective fantasy author (and I'm sure the editor who has to read this stuff), but the path is fraught with danger. Going strongly against the genre may result in you being unable to sell your work or find an audience.

Should you make the work your own, by changing elves, creating dwarves with no beards, dragons that don't fly, magic that works in an unusual way, and so forth? Sure. If you're a novelist, and you want people to identify your work as something different, you are wise to come up with your own unique take on the genre. Being too different has its own perils, but if done right, can be a refreshing change from the usual fare.

 

[Moleculo]

There are two books series I have enjoyed which are based on homebrewed settings. The first, the Malazan Book of the Fallen by Steven Erikson, is based on a cooperatively built and owned world. It covers the perspectives of a large cast of characters--from the lowest grunt dying in a war he doesn't understand all the way to the deities--during a time of great upheaval in the world. Erikson is an anthropologist, which also lends a unique voice.

The second is the Prince of Nothing series by R. Scott Bakker, who is currently pursuing a PhD in philosophy. He uses his fantasy world to conduct a metaphorical conversation between Philosophy, Science, and Religion. It's interesting stuff that I wouldn't have ever seen coming from someone's high school campaign.

 

[Thanael]

Thanks for the replies. My own gaming fiction would be standard swords and sorcery fare, I admit, albeit one where the characters are extensively developed, and as much effort is put into character development and getting to know them as people, as there is into the fight scenes. Since I'm writing original fiction here, as opposed to transcribing a game session, I figure things will flow better, in the sense that what works at the gaming table doesn't always work in narrative fiction, and vice versa.

CSL does that mean that you plan to write a novel set in Greyhawk ?

 

[Neil Bishop]

In the main I hate, loathe and detest most gaming fiction and most particularly anything set in the Forgotten Realms (which is otherwise my campaign world of choice)... but the various books by Paul S Kemp are not only great FR stories, they are really well-written. I think you will find he has broken the gaming fiction author stereotype and will, before long, be a noted fantasy author (if he is not considered such already).