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D&D (2024) I like the new Warlock

TwoSix

"Diegetics", by L. Ron Gygax
Sure, I get that. But changing a class’s resource management to function across an adventuring day instead of an encounter-by-encounter basis is an enormous upheaval of the class’s play pattern, and is likely to turn off players who enjoyed the class as it was. So, again, if the way pact magic works in the 2014 PHB is causing problems, by all means make changes to address them. As long as those changes don’t make warlocks into a daily spell slot management class.
I think there's pretty broad agreement that the current paradigm of how short rests work kinda sucks, and is way more subject to both adventure setup and group dynamics than is ideal.

So I think the broader question is, is it better to just gloss over the current paradigm and collapse resources into a single method of recharge, or maybe adjust the paradigm so that resources with two different types of recharge are actually viable?

I obviously favor the latter, but it's not like I can't see some valid rationales for the former approach.
 

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Zaukrie

New Publisher
I have some fond memories of 4e, but it's gone. Encounter powers are not coming back. They didn't make sense and were an artificial game balance rule. The character doesn't know what an encounter is, only the player and DM knows. Everything in life including you reading this message is an "encounter" and it just doesn't make sense, even in a fantasy world, for quantity of powers to be based on encounters.

Now if you want to say a spell slot recharges every minute, or after you spend a minute doing nothing, that we could work with.
Encounter powers had nothing to do with players or characters....they were things only available once in awhile. I fail to see how they were difficult to implement all.

If they keep short rest, make it 5 minutes or something (or 1 minute as you say)......But, IMO, only rules lawyers worried about encounter vs daily powers being a concern. They worked, easily.
 



Reef

Hero
I think there's pretty broad agreement that the current paradigm of how short rests work kinda sucks, and is way more subject to both adventure setup and group dynamics than is ideal.

So I think the broader question is, is it better to just gloss over the current paradigm and collapse resources into a single method of recharge, or maybe adjust the paradigm so that resources with two different types of recharge are actually viable?

I obviously favor the latter, but it's not like I can't see some valid rationales for the former approach.
I think it’s highly unlikely they make any Short Rest changes across the board. Which is why I think the easiest way is to decouple Pact Magic from Short rests.

Make it Long rest recharge, with two chances to Channel Patron to recharge in between (to mimic the existing expected Short Rest mechanic). Solves the frequency-table issue, keeps the limited slot for the occasional-boom feel, and allows Warlocks to control their own gas mileage. Keeps the flavour unique from the traditional casters. And I sort of like the idea of drawing down more powers from the Patron to recharge the batteries.

Throw in a free casting of a Pact spell once a day, and I’d be ecstatic:j.
 
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Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
I think there's pretty broad agreement that the current paradigm of how short rests work kinda sucks, and is way more subject to both adventure setup and group dynamics than is ideal.
I mean, I don’t agree that it sucks, like, at all. But, if tweaks can be made that improve it for the people who do have issues, I’m for that. So long as it doesn’t upend the very positive experience my players and I are having with it. Which putting everyone on the same recovery system would absolutely do.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
The older Warlock was like "What do you mean I have spells?"
Not at all IME, but it would have been easy to fix without making them standard spellcasters, much less half-casters.

Like even if you take the Mystic arcanum invocation as much as possibly you’re still a stunted “mage” that is mostly casting lower level spells than those cast by an actual mage.

All the class needed for Spellcasting was a quick recharge ability about twice a day.

“As an action, you regain all your warlock spell slots. This can be done as part of a short rest without interrupting the rest.”

Done.

Instead we got “you’re a crappy excuse for a mage, half-caster.”

I like almost everything else, but this channge is complete bunk.
 

Except when it does. Which in our games is often.

So many adventures have time pressures built in that I just don't understand how others don't understand time pressure in an adventure. All those wandering monster charts (most adventures), death curses that causes populations to die over time (tomb of annihilation), poison gas filled dungeons (hidden shrine), etc.. How is this a new concept to some people? How have you played D&D for this many years and found that your PCs can just stop for an hour wherever they are whenever they want to and nothing bad ever happens?

And that's not even accounting for longer-duration based spells and other abilities that run out because of an hour rest.

Yeah, this matches my experience.

People keep finding issues with the XP budget per adventuring day. If there's no time pressure, well then sure there's no reason not to short rest. But there's no reason not to long rest, either! Might as well nova every encounter and then long rest. It even means you'll have more resources available to survive any interim ambushes! And then you're back to the Five Minute Adventuring Day.

So then you implement narrative time pressure to push the PCs forward and stop them from constantly long resting. But now you have the opposite problem. If there's not enough time to long rest, maybe there's not enough time to short rest, too! We can't stop just because the Battlemaster burned Action Surge, Second Wind, and all Superiority dice. Everybody else can keep going and hp isn't a problem. We gotta keep going before the world literally ends! If we're on an actual schedule and not a narrative device -- which is what the players should be assuming -- we might be out of time if we delay even a moment. Say goodbye to short rests, downtime activities, side quests, and anything of that sort! You've designed those out of your game. Now boarding track 29: non-stop rail service to BBEGsville.

The other popular option is gritty survival recovery, where short rests take 8 hours, and long rests take 7 days. Except now, you can't use time pressure, because one encounter where the DM rolls well and the PCs roll poorly means the PCs are out of action for a week. And spells or abilities that are meant to last a whole adventuring day, like mage armor, now... don't. It also makes the game, well, gritty survival instead of the more pulpy action. It changes the style of play. Lots of tables don't want that. And you shouldn't have to abandon your preferred style of play just to have a game that functions.

Mixed rest ability recovery is a problem. It's like having both 3e and 4e classes in the same game, which is exactly what they were trying to accomplish. But I don't think moving everything to long rests really solves the core problems; it just starts to solve them. The next issue is that long rests being so universally powerful are a big problem.

Always being at maximum effectiveness immediately after a long rest, even in the middle of a dungeon, is a terrible design choice. It's silly, and DMs try to punish that behavior with ambushes to prevent it.

Unfortunately, the game is designed around needing rests to not die as well as needing rests to be cool. That's an issue when you need to stop and rest to not die in the middle of the dungeon (sometimes trigger by random events) but also needs to not let players burn all their cool constantly and just stop so they can keep being cool. The two designs work against each other, but that tensions is also part of making the game a game. So DMs decide to punish the PCs when they're just trying to be cool, knowing they can hold back when the PCs are force to stop and not die.

Except punishment doesn't encourage players to do the behavior you want. It encourages them to avoid punishment, which isn't the same thing. That's why I keep arriving at the conclusion that the game needs to reward the players for doing the behavior that you want: not long resting and reaching the end of the adventuring day. Even if you're planning 3-4 encounters per day, the players need mechanical rewards to justify pushing through the end of that adventuring day. The PCs -- the players -- should be rewarded for bearing the risk of not long resting.

It can't be a long-term reward like more treasure or XP, either, because that compounds on itself. Your only benefit will be commensurately harder encounters -- because if not, then the game gets boring -- so it doesn't really get you anything except down the class progression chart faster. A long-term reward also encourages stopping the short-term behavior change once you don't really need more long-term reward. It's gotta be a short-term reward to encourage short-term behavior change. Anyone who has owned a dog or raised a child should understand this.

So what the game really should do is let the players be cool in ways they normally can't just by reaching deeper into the adventuring day budget. There's nothing at all in the game that does that, really. I don't think such an overhaul would be compatible with 5e, either, and that's a design limitation for One D&D.
 


doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Gotta love when folks with seemingly-opposed interests find common ground!

This is definitely what I’m going to suggest when the survey comes out. I know they don’t really look to the feedback for ideas, but I’m going to bring it up anyway. “Channel Patron” seems like a great alternative to Pact Magic in my opinion because it would make warlocks less short rest reliant, while still benefiting from short rests, and still feeling like cantrip-based casters with the occasional big splashy spell.
As long as it isn’t called channel patron, I’d support it. Warlock does not need more thematic reliance on the one patron. I’ve never even considered my spells to be from the patron.
 

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