I Love Gaming but I Hate Gamers!

[DarrenGMiller]

Seems like I post this link at least once a month.
It just applies to so many social situations involving geeks.
Read it. It has cleared up so many things for me.

Ah, the Geek Social Fallacies. I give them a bit of credit for saving my game, both the campaign I just ended and the continuation of my hobby. I was gaming with a group that would have given poor Gruff nightmares. These and a few other pieces of wisdom, from my own head, as well as from fellow ENWORLDers and Monte Cook's pen, preserved my sanity and allowed me to reclaim my game.

My advice from my own wealth of experience with a nightmare of a gaming group:

1. Take some time off. It gives you perspective and allows you to think about what you miss about gaming. It also allows you to look at what is really important to you and what behaviors you refuse to tolerate.

2. Either make your friends your gaming group, or make your gaming group your friends. Don't game with people you wouldn't at least want to be friends with. If you take the time to game with them, take the time to get to know them outside of the game and be their friend. If that prospect is not appealing to you, stop gaming with them.

3. FIND MATURE PEOPLE (or at least people you like) WHO ARE YOUR AGE!!! Maturity is relative. It is not an agist thing. As has been said, there are mature teens and immature 30-somethings out there. I have gamed with both (as well as immature teens and mature 30-somethings). However, the generation gap often makes it difficult for you to relate to each other outside of the game and can make it awkward (as a high school teacher, I KNOW this). Eliminate this potential for misunderstanding and miscommunication by gaming with people relatively close to your age, unless you know the teen gamers' parents, or your parents know the adult gamers. In general, I have found most high school gamers (ages 15-18) more mature than college aged gamers (19-22) and then things improve again when marriage, car and mortgage payments kick on and student loans are being repaid. I think that (and this is a broad generalization) college aged individuals are expirimenting socially and figuring out how they are going to behave as adults, or they are "sowing their wild oats" before real responsibility of career and family sets in. At any rate, find people to game with that have steady relationships and a sense of direction in life. Also, game with people you like (if you are immature and like it, game with others you get along with and find your maturity level acceptable) and accept.

4. Reclaim your game. When you start the game again, especially if you are the DM/GM, let the entire group know what acceptable behavior is for you. Game on your terms, but be prepared for some of your group to go their separate ways if your terms are disagreeable to them. Don't be ultra-picky about it, but let them know what your non-negotiables are. There is no substitute for real authentic communication. If someone offends you on a regular basis, let them know about it and be prepared to have people you offend let you know about it as well.

5. Set the standards for acceptable behavior. If you don't want off-color jokes during a session, don't tell any, no matter how innocuous or funny it may be. If you don't want alcohol consumed at the gaming table, don't make an exception for yourself when you want a drink, etc. I always tell people to let their behavior be without reproach if they expect others to respect their standards.

6. Finally, game with people who come to the table to have fun. Enjoy the game. It is supposed to be fun. Don't game with people who are there to "win D&D" or "show the DM who's boss" or prove some point to themselves or others, or even to fill some void in their life. When I started to game with people who remembered that it is supposed to be fun, that is when my fun came back. If your hobbies are laborious for you, check to see if you are making money from them. If you are not getting paid, stop. I try to have fun every day at work and while I don't some days, I generally have a blast and get paid for it. If my gaming is less fun than work, I need to quit my hobby and find one that "pays" more dividends of enjoyment.

I hope this helps. I have been down this road before.

DM

 

[fusangite]

OK Edena, Oryan, bear with me here.

Can we accept that it is possible to make generalizations about groups of people? That groups of people can be compared to one another, that, for instance, men tend to be taller than women or people in Denmark are less likely to have black hair than the rest of the populations? Given the way you guys are expressing yourselves, I'm not sure the I can take that for granted. So I'd like check.

Next, can we accept that statistics and demography are actual empirical disciplines that people can practice? That a polling firm can ascertain, for instance, that Canadians are twice as likely to vote Liberal as they are to vote NDP at the moment.

Let's suppose, for instance, we have a room containing twenty people, twelve of whom are redheads. And we deploy a reputable polling/statistics firm to determine that in a randomly statistically representative group of people, only one in twenty has red hair. Can we confidently assert that people in this room are more likely to have red hair than does the population at large? Good.

Hopefully, we can all agree that it is possible to generalize about gamers in this way, if we accept, for instance, WOTC's market research. It indicates that games are more vastly more likely to be male than the population at large; that in your average room of 20 humans, there will be about 10 females, whereas in your room of gamers, there will be about two.

Now, I think I can make a credible case that a room full of twenty gamers will contain more socially dysfunctional individuals than a statistically representative group of twenty people chosen from the population at large. Although I have not commissioned market research on the subject, I think that I can make a pretty solid, empirically-grounded case for this.

As for this maturity argument,

Exhibiting traits associated with age would be wisdom, intelligence, growth, vocabulary, & mentality. But we are talking about personality maturity

To be personally mature entails personally exhibiting traits associated with maturity. Affixing the adjective "personal" does not change the meaning of the word. "Mature" still means mature.

Sure, some people learn to hide their social immaturity better than others, but that doesn't mean they are no longer immature.

I don't comprehend what you mean by "mature." Mature people exhibit maturity. By doing what? Acting that way. I hate to tell you this but people who act more mature are more mature. It's really that simple.

Ever been divorced or know anyone that has? How mature was that situation handled?

Well, we don't really have a chance to compare adults getting divorced to children getting divorced; do we? So you can't actually assert that adults handle divorce more maturaly than children.

Ever been flipped off or honked at while driving?

Yes. But I find that on a day to day basis, I am less frequently assaulted than I was in elementary school.

Ever seen an adult whine, complain, & argue in a D&D game?

Yes. And your point is....?

Ever seen an adult yell at a waiter for not giving him the service he demands?

Yes. But I find that adults in restaurants upset me with their shouting less frequently than children in restaurants do. They also appear less likely to throw food. We could go on with different examples but I think you get my point.

Personality wise, I don't think we act any more mature than children...

What does the word "mature" mean to you? "Mature" means essentially the same thing as "old" does. So, what you are saying is that you believe that adults and children act about as old as eachother. It sounds to me like you are measuring "old" wrong if this is the result you're coming out with. As far as the dictionary is concerned,

ma·ture ( P ) Pronunciation Key (m-tyr, -tr, -chr)
adj. ma·tur·er, ma·tur·est

Having reached full natural growth or development: a mature cell.
Having reached a desired or final condition; ripe: a mature cheese.
Of, relating to, or characteristic of full development, either mental or physical: mature for her age.

Suitable or intended for adults: mature subject matter.
Composed of adults: a mature audience.
Worked out fully by the mind; considered: a mature plan of action.
Having reached the limit of its time; due: a mature bond.
No longer subject to great expansion or development. Used of an industry, a market, or a product.
Geology. Having reached maximum development of form. Used of streams and landforms.

your last statement makes about as much sense as saying, "I find that bald people have just as much hair as everyone else does."

we just show our immaturity in different ways.

Yeah -- in more or less mature ways.

I'm not impressed by anyones large vocabulary or impressive social status.

I am. Sorry you're indifferent to it. I like talking with successful, articulate people. I think most of us do.

That doesn't make them more mature than others. I work at a top notch University where my boss (an 80 y/o well known professor) has shown his immaturity at times and it surprised the heck out of me.

No one is disputing that people of all ages are capable of immature behaviour. What we are talking about here is the level of maturity exhibited, on average, by different groups of people.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Gruff,
As to your current difficulties, chin up and I hope you find a better gaming group so you can enjoy gaming once more. I hope you do a little more delurking in the future too - Enworld's a pretty cool place to hang out.

I know that's why I'm here. I'm hoping some of the cool rubs off.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

We're now friends with them and their friends. However, none of them are interested in the game (and in fact make jokes about the term "roleplaying" or for some reason comparing it to "playing with old naked fat men").

man what?

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Thats why when you are married, over 25, own a house and a car, have a GPA over 3.5 and a clean driving record your insurance premiums drop through the floor. Statisticly, to have all that you are generally a responsible person.

They lower your insurance for a high GPA now? Man, I should get a car.

Roadrage isn't a form of immaturity? I lost count of how many times I've seen the finger aimed at me or someone else, or heard nasty comments followed by a horn honking.

...or maybe not...

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Here I go delurking again...

Bet you can't post just one.

 

[Nyaricus]

tsk tsk. I use dictionary.com for split second look-ups, but if you are going into such details as you are, at least take out your copy of Websters New Dictionary, man - that's just common courtesy

Anywho, I think many have made good points for either side of the arguement. I personally think that we humans continue to grow and mature as we age right up untill we die. However, we do not do so at the same pace. Teenagers can be very mature, adults can be complete write-offs.

Now, I beleive the main argument which was mentioned here as an issue is the generational gap. That is a larger factor than any 'maturity' issue at hand. Baby boomers are very different from generation X, etc. This is because we have to deal with so many issues that change day to day, year to year, generation to generation. That is life, and that is progression - although it comes at a cost. I don't live with my father due to issues we have understadning each other, and other personal issues not worth mentioning here.

***

The fact is gruff, you need to make yourself a set of standards for what you truely want in your gaming group - and then you need to impliment them. It doesn't matter which side of the DM's screen you wish to be on - there will always be another DM or another player. The thing is you must be picky about those people. I second (or third, or forth) taking a break from D&D - after officially declaring to your gaming group that you do not wish to play with them anymore. I think that the saying previously mentioned 'life is too short to have bad gaming' holds very true here.

Now, you say you are not sure if you wish to stay or go - and by no means do you have to stay this course - that is why a break would be good here. Chil with your other friends, and just put your time and enery to other things. If you find yourself missing it alot, perhaps then it will be time to blow the dust off your PHB and say 'lets go and break out the character sheets and dice and have at some dastardly orcs!'. Make a list of what you enjoy, and try to number it, but do so objectively. Try to not be biased and say 'yeah, i am having problems with D&D, but i like it more than basketball. okay, D&D 1, b-ball 2.'

Talk with your friends (the jocks/quasi-jocks) and ask them if they would ever be interested in playing D&D. Currently, i play with a drummer/paintballer, a warehouse worker/techie geek, a realy lazy dude with no plan/aspirations for life, a half black/half asian anime guy whos is SO funny, some guy who i don't know very well, a really annoying guy (the 18 year old who is likely getting the boot), an improv funny-man, a guy who's listens to everything from black metal to Jay-Z, and yours truely - a metalhead/nerd who is the only one in a steady relationship of two whole (amazing) years. So there's 8 (dynamic) players and me the DM. We generally get along, except for that one problem maker - but once i get a manifesto in a good draft, i will be able to easily expell him.

One thing i have been toying with is a relatively simple Rule:

The Rule of 3-2-1.

3) If there are three instances of major problem-making (including problematic meta-gaming, showing up late without giving a phone call ahead of time, harassment of other players, disrespectfulness of other players or the house we are playing in, etc) you will be asked to leave for the rest of the meet. If this is being hosted at your house, you will be asked to miss next meet. That counts towards your '2' (see below) - if you can't be mature at your own house, what should we be expecting at ours? What you can expect is you will be asked to leave (see above).

Note: When removed, your character will recieve half experience and rewards for the remainder of the meet.

2) If your are forcibly removed from 2 meets, you will be asked to miss the next one. That is to give you time to think about your problematic actions and decide whether you wish to continue playing with us and repecting us as fellow people and gamers who gather for a purpose - one which you are missing. I will not spell it out for you here - if you haven't grasped it yet, D&D is not for you.

1) If you decide to come back after your abscence, if ANYTHING occurs in which you are a major factor in, you will be asked to leave this campaign permanently. Your character will be moved to NPC status, and you will not be invited back to play D&D.

 

[Buttercup]

Queen D, I love you too. This coming GenCon, we really must grab Suzi Yee and run off to that chocolate place for some treats and girl talk!

WayneLigon, I've been around now and then, but life has been extremely busy for the last few months. Hopefully things will settle down after Christmas. Thanks for the welcome back though!

 

[Tatsukun]

Just to play devil's advocate here.

If you have found many groups in a row to be too crass / lowbrow for you, maybe it's just that you have set the bar very high. I consider my group to be pretty tame, but we have had at least one player leave after a short time because we weren't polite enough for him.

/Devil's advocate

-Tatsu (who likes funny jokes about all topics, and is therefore nearly impossible to offend)

 

[Oryan77]

What does the word "mature" mean to you? "Mature" means essentially the same thing as "old" does.

You've pointed me to the dictionaries definition twice and explained that "mature" is the same thing as "old"...so "immature" means they are "young"? This whole time we've been talking about maturity and you've given numerous explanations about why you think gamers are mostly "immature"; you've really been saying that you think gamers are "young"? So when people say that they hate playing with immature gamers, they are saying that they hate playing with young gamers? I don't think so.

As far as the dictionary is concerned,your last statement makes about as much sense as saying, "I find that bald people have just as much hair as everyone else does."

If you honestly think that what I've been saying is the same thing as saying "bald people have as much hair as everyone else" then I don't think I need to continue this conversation with you :\ Either you are really confused, or you are trying too hard to make me look bad...and I've been pretty clear in my posts so I don't think you're confused. I think I deserve more credit than that and I learn quickly when it's a waste of my time discussing opinions with someone.

I like talking with successful, articulate people.

I talk to them every day at work. I prefer to talk to people with common sense though. I find that people who concentrate on being unnecessarily articulate usually lack common sense.