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I need some advice on romance.

mosaic

Explorer
Greetings all. Here's my dilemma: I've been trying to get my wife to play D&D w/ me for a while. She finally agreed, but on one condition - she wants there to be a little romance in the game. "You want your PC to have a boyfriend?" I asked. "No," she said, "well yes, but not that easy." She wants characters to have relationships, but not just because she or I say they do. She wants an element of chance, just like in real life, or like there is when you play combat. She wants to roll the dice to see if it works or not.

Ever the good husband (and I REALLY want her to play D&D!), I did a little research. In the books, the closest thing I could find was Diplomacy and modifying NPC attitude. Close but not quite. I checked the internet but everything I found either said A) romance is a great element in RPGs. Play it by ear when it happens. Or B) was creepy stuff that sounds like it gets WAY more graphic than I'm looking for. Which left inventing something new.

Here's what we came up with. Create a new skill called Flirt (Cha). It would be like Diplomacy it that it changes people's attitude. You could even use the same NPC attiude chart, except that the most positive attitude would be Smitten, instead of Helpful. So you could try to bat your eyes and talk someone up, and if it goes okay, they become Friendly like with Diplomacy, but if it goes really well, they're Smitten and you can start dating (or whatever).

There's a lot of overlap with Diplomacy, but that's true of Intimidate as well. You could add feats like Romantic (+2 on Flirt and Sense Motive) or flaws like Socially Awkward (-2 Flirt and Diplomacy). You could throw in a few racial modifiers (1/2 elves, +2, 1/2 orcs, -2).

It took me a little while to warm up to the idea, but if you're playing a game centered on relationship between characters, you need a way to find out how it goes. Sure, the DM could just say it works or it doesn't, but then, you could do that with combat too, and that wouldn't be much fun. Besides, I don't want to be the one who gets blamed when the guy her PC is hitting on rejects her.

One last thing. To reflect the capricous nature of love, players would have to be subject to flirtation themselves. An NPC might attempt to woo a PC. Unlike Diplomacy, where attitude is always the players choice, romantic relationships might not be. The PC could make an opposed check using Wisdom, but should she loose, she might get into a relationship that years down the road, she'll ask herself, "Why?" The effects might be something like a mild Charm spell, where you don't see the other persons flaws and will do what they ask as long as it isn't harmful to you or completely against your values.

Anyway, I'd love some feedback or suggestions on how to do it differently. One thing we haven't figured out is that, while the drawbacks like vulnerability or the risk of being taken advantage of are clear, what would the in-game advantage to having a partner be? Something like a cohorts, followers or familiars? Or something more?

Thanks.
 

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Yair

Community Supporter
Love & War (by Atlas Games) has some mecahnics for winning over a loved one in courtly love. It is directed towards encouraging quests and so on, primarily as a way for a knight to win the heart and/or hand of his beloved lady. It isn't grotesque or anything; I'll give you the highlights when I'm not at work.
I haven't read it, but Dynasties and Demagogues focuses on political machinations so might have something appropriate as well.

Regarding your Flirt skill, I'd say it's risky. Diplomacy, if played by the RAW, is atrociously powerfu at medium or higher levels. If you play Flirt by these rules you'll end up easily "charming" everyone, which is just not fun. I would suggest adapting a system more similar to this, which strives to make diplomacy more sensible.
Technically, Bluff or Diplomacy (as appropriate) could be used instead of adding a new skill, but I actually like the idea of making it a seperate skill.
I'd be very generous with circumstance modifiers, very generous indeed.
 

Herobizkit

Adventurer
What are the benefits of having a "partner" in real life?

Companionship, shared expenses, sex/intimacy, among numerous intangibles... in a D&D lifestyle (and sometimes IRL :uhoh: ), though, partners tend to be more trouble than they're worth. ;)

You could have the partner generate an income for the PC, add to the PCs travelling party as a follower/cohort like you've suggested, and of course the RP element covers most of the intangibles of a long-lasting (or not) relationship.

The partner becomes a very strong plot motivator as well, as you can do all sorts of things with the partner to spur the PC in any direction you like. That, in my opinion, is their greatest benefit.

I forgot to mention: BIG kudos on improvising the Flirt (Cha) skill. Consider this yoinked.
 

Rystil Arden

First Post
I would suggest adapting a system more similar to this, which strives to make diplomacy more sensible.
I would definitely not use anything approaching the Rich Burlew system for romance. Romance is, in fact, one of the things that that system renders absurd ("Pass the salt my dear?" "Never!"). If you used the Rich Burlew system, then your high-elven bard would be more likely to woo the heart of the level 1 Drow Fighter in service to Lolth than the level 20 high-elven priestess of Hanali Celanil, the goddess of love.
 

Yair

Community Supporter
Rystil Arden said:
I would definitely not use anything approaching the Rich Burlew system for romance. Romance is, in fact, one of the things that that system renders absurd ("Pass the salt my dear?" "Never!"). If you used the Rich Burlew system, then your high-elven bard would be more likely to woo the heart of the level 1 Drow Fighter in service to Lolth than the level 20 high-elven priestess of Hanali Celanil, the goddess of love.
Hmm, true. I maintain that some moving-target DC is needed for there to be challenges at higher levels, however. Perhaps just an arbitrary DC based on how difficult the task is, instead of level.
I'm also thinking the skill matters too much here, I would be tempted to make it into a Cha ability check with perhaps a synergy bonus. This way the highly charismatic bard still wins hearts, while the ugly and disgusting wizard that decided to max out his Flirt skills won't. I think when it comes to winning someone over, skill isn't that big a deal. But perhaps that's more an indication of my poor skills :eek:
I would also suggest a natural 20 will always succeed and a 1 will always fail, to keep some true randmoness in the mix.
 

Rystil Arden

First Post
Yair said:
Hmm, true. I maintain that some moving-target DC is needed for there to be challenges at higher levels, however. Perhaps just an arbitrary DC based on how difficult the task is, instead of level.
I'm also thinking the skill matters too much here, I would be tempted to make it into a Cha ability check with perhaps a synergy bonus. This way the highly charismatic bard still wins hearts, while the ugly and disgusting wizard that decided to max out his Flirt skills won't. I think when it comes to winning someone over, skill isn't that big a deal. But perhaps that's more an indication of my poor skills :eek:
I would also suggest a natural 20 will always succeed and a 1 will always fail, to keep some true randmoness in the mix.
I would also agree that perhaps an untrained check is best here, but give that check a synergy bonus from Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, and maybe Knowledge N&R :)
 

ThoughtBubble

First Post
Well, there are two major ways to encourage romance, mechanically and story.

Mechanically:
Personally, I wouldn't make a new skill for it, instead using Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Perform and Intimidate where appropriate.

The first thing I would avoid is making it a single skill check. Tell someone their hair is beautiful? Is it a lie? Bluff. If it's true, Diplomacy. Want to recite a poem or tell a charming story? Perform. I think I once got someon to dance with me because they were too scared to say no. Make it a series of smaller steps. Eye contact, sitting down, saying something casual, a bit of converstation, a coy smile, seeing if they're interested, seeing how interested, catching on to topics they like, and leaving a favorable final impression are all different things that could very easily be a little set of conversation and rolls.

Be liberal with what will work as cirucmstance modifiers. Flowers, neat stories, carefully planted rumors, wealth and conversational topics can all lead to having people think better of you.

Try to keep the DC's appropriate, and accessable to your audience. If you want everyone to have some evening socialization, even a 5 should enough to get someone to nod politely if they want to be out socializing. A ten can be enough to have a good evening with, provided the other party is willing.

The key to figuring out good DCs is going to be establishing how other people feel towards you. People who feel positive towards the act should be fairly easy to flirt with (5-10), standoffish people might be harder, while sequestered and hermit-like people will be much harder (30+ range).

Story/ world wise, you've got other stuff to worry about. So, where do people socialize in your world? When is it appropriate? When is it inapropriate? Are there limitations on who 'adventuring types' are allowed to flirt with? How many problems can some coinage smooth over?

Romance is fun in games because it provides some connections to other people. They have friends and connections, and by extention, so do you. They'll hear things, and so will you. Being romantically involved with a knight, for example, might open doors to meeting nobles, seeing jousts, education and a type of legitimacy you might not otherwise get.

I would probably reccomend against the random falling in love thing though. I understand why you're doing it, but you'll need to really think hard to see if it makes things better. I can far too easily see the scenario where someone gets stuck with an NPC they dislike for a long period of time and don't enjoy having to play around it. Especially since there isnt really a way to define your 'angry broding loner' concept as having love resistance +15.

Anyway, best of luck.
 

ThoughtBubble

First Post
Yair said:
Hmm, true. I maintain that some moving-target DC is needed for there to be challenges at higher levels, however. Perhaps just an arbitrary DC based on how difficult the task is, instead of level.
I'm also thinking the skill matters too much here, I would be tempted to make it into a Cha ability check with perhaps a synergy bonus. This way the highly charismatic bard still wins hearts, while the ugly and disgusting wizard that decided to max out his Flirt skills won't. I think when it comes to winning someone over, skill isn't that big a deal. But perhaps that's more an indication of my poor skills :eek:
I would also suggest a natural 20 will always succeed and a 1 will always fail, to keep some true randmoness in the mix.


So, you're saying that while, after levels of practice, I will be able to cut down 10 or more opponents in a single blow, fire and draw an arrow a second, run across a greased tightrope, talk to dieties directly, command storms, defeat dragons, hide in the shadow of a blade of grass, or bend the universe to my will, but still not be any better at talking with the girl across the table?
 

Medwyn

Explorer
Seduction

Spycraft 1.0 and Spycraft 2.0 by AEG offers a Seduction ruleset would fit what you are after.

Spycraft 1.0 had seduction as part of a three roll system using Innuendo, Sense Motive and finally Bluff to secure your chances.


Spycraft 2.0 using a system similar to the 1.0 Chase system for getting people to go along with you (I think it falls under Interogation).

-Medwyn
 

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