"I nerfed the sorceror"

[Shaele]

We use a scaled-down version of spontaneous casting in our campaign: wizards/clerics/druids prepare spells, but don't lose them when cast (so they can freely cast from their prepared list, up to their max spells for the day). This adds a little flexibility to "standard" casters, but had the unintended effect of making sorcerers (and bards) _much_ less appealing.

Basically, as it stands in our campaign, sorcerors have:
1. More spells per day than wizards
2. Delayed access to new spell levels (compared to any other caster)
3. Fewer available spells than a wizard (a wizard's high intelligence grants him more available spell slots, which means more spells prepped. A high int specialist will have more spells prepped than the sorceror knows!)
4. No bonus feats
5. Poor class skills, and few skill points (since he doesn't get the bonus skill points a wizard will get).
6. Delayed access to PRCs (since required skills are cross-class, he required twice the levels of a wizard to enter a PRC - which makes many of them nearly useless).

I'm desperate for suggestions. I'd like to create/find a version of the sorcerer that accomplishes the following.

1. Flavors the sorceror. He should feel like more than a watered-down wizard, with abilities that are unique. These abilities should focus on his spellcasting: giving him critical hits (as a bad example) might increaes his appeal, but doesn't "fit".
2. Gives him the option of stepping into PRCs down the road. This should come at a cost to him, naturally, and I'm fine with some PRCs being almost unattainable for him.
3. Balances him in a world where he _cannot_ purchase any item he wants at anytime (I've heard arguments that having a limited spell list doesn't matter if he can purchase wands/scrolls to increase his flexibility. In our campaign, this isn't an easy option, and items are rare).

I've come up with the following possibilities.
1. I purchased Monte's "Book of Eldritch Might II" for a look at his sorcerer (nice book btw, recommended). He adds hit points/skill points, and shuffles their spell list around slightly to emphasize "flash bang" spells. Nice rewrite, but a sorcerer ends up weaker as a spellcaster (with more hit points and skill points). This is the wrong focus for me.
2. alt.sorceror. I downloaded this from Vrylakos' website. Spells are divided into domains, and a sorceror gets his choice of two. This focuses his spellcasting down paths of related spells. GREAT idea... until you realize that a specialist wizard can do exactly the same thing... and have more spells... at earlier levels... and gets bonus feats. It would probably work well by itself, but with the rule changes I've already made, sorcerors end up looking weak.
3. Some wild-caster variant (either RangerWicketts or mine), which adds tons of flavor, but adds mucho complexity.

So... to make a long ramble even longer... anyone have suggestions for sorcerors? Please remember that I'm trying to balance with my existing house rule in place. [Btw... This is NOT a troll or an attempt to bring back the "s0rc3r0rs bl0w! wizzies rule!" threads of yore, so let's please avoid "finger-pointing"]

Thanks

Shaele

 

[hong]

I would ask: do you absolutely, positively 100% _need_ two specialist arcane spellcasting classes in your game? Does it fill some sort of campaign-specific niche, or have its own unique backstory? D&D managed to survive for 25 years with only the magic-user/mage/wizard class to cast the boom spells. Unless there's a good reason to keep it around, the easiest thing to do might be to just delete the sorcerer class from your game.

That's not to say that the sorc's spellcasting mechanic is bad; in fact, I prefer it to the standard wizard. It's just that the two classes' niches have a lot of potential for overlap, and if you start fiddling with the classes to make them more similar, you lose much of the reason for having them as separate in the first place.

 

[Chacal]

Random thoughts not checked against balance :

-How about giving them the metamagick bonus feats of the wizard?
Spontaneous casters really shine with metamagick !

-A classic house rule is the free eschew material feat. Not sufficient to balance them, but it helps.


-Lowering arcane failure for sorcerers


-Let them use some metamagick by paying temporary Con points (want to cast a silent still dimdoor and only have access to 4th level slots: pay 2 (or 4) Con points. (it looks like a PrC special ability but I don't remember which)

-Give them a steal spell ability: with a touch or ranged touch attack, followed by a will save, let them replace a spell slot with one they think the target has prepared. If the target hasn't prepared it, the slot is lost.

I've warned you that it wasn't balanced

Chacal

 

[Crothian]

Monte's Sorcerer is not weak. It's more powerful then the PHB version. The big change of the spell list is okay. Some of the better spells have been increased by a spell level, but I don't think that will hinder the sorcerer much as there are still many good spells on his list.

 

[Shaele]

Hmm...

--hong--
I would ask: do you absolutely, positively 100% _need_ two specialist arcane spellcasting classes in your game?
--------

Great point. From a campaign point of view, I don't see a need for a sorceror. I think my motivation in trying to keep the class was to provide an interesting alternative to the "musty-tome-bearing" wizard, but there's other ways to accomplish that I suppose.

I was already toying with the idea of adding some culturally-specific "flavor" to the wizard mechanic. Dwarven wizards might favor "books" of spiral-bound silver plates, stamped with runes. They might have the ability to purchase a feat for scribing runes or tattoos (scribe scroll using an alternate medium). Something like this could add flavor without changing the mechanic much, if any.

[edited: typo, I really need to learn to proof-read these things]

 

[Shaele]

RE: Random thoughts

--Chacal----
-How about giving them the metamagick bonus feats of the wizard? ... -A classic house rule is the free eschew material feat.
--------

This is what we've done up to this point. I thought much the same way - that metamagic feats would emphasize their strengths. What I've found, though, is that metamagic feats are rarely used since characters don't have enough high level spells to take advantage of the feats.

This could be characteristic of our campaign too, since we play low-mid level. In a high-level campaign, where you can afford the +2/+3 spell level penalty, this might not be the case. Even so, I'd prefer something that is useful for the life of a character, not just in the "end game".

--Chacal----
-Let them use some metamagick by paying temporary Con points <snip>
-Give them a steal spell ability: with a touch or ranged touch <snip>
--------
These are pretty interesting, and more what I originally had in mind!

Thanks for the suggestions.

 

[Shaele]

Monte's sorceror

--Crothian--
Monte's Sorcerer is not weak. It's more powerful then the PHB version. The big change of the spell list is okay. Some of the better spells have been increased by a spell level, but I don't think that will hinder the sorcerer much as there are still many good spells on his list.
--------

I don't entirely agree. Monte's sorceror has d6 and 4 skill points per level, which is a big boost. Unfortunately, he pays for that with reduced spell casting abilities. He uses the same spells/day and spells/known as the PHB, but many of his previously available spells are now (a) higher level, or (b) removed from the list entirely.

Is Monte's sorcerer balanced? I think so, and I think it's a really interesting variant. As I stated in my previous message though, that's not the direction I want to take. I'm not interested in a "wizard with fewer spells and more hitpoints". I'm looking for a variant sorceror who's every bit as magically capable as a wizard, but in a different way. I'm just not sure how to capture that "feel".

 

[Crothian]

Back in secomnd addtion they had "Magical Paths". These paths had spells that were very similiar to each other and you needed to lkearn the lower level ones before the higher ones. Perhaps you could incorperate that idea. THat way each Sorcerer would have a centralized theme for instance.

There is a a feat in one of the Forgotten Realms book that allows the spellcaster to change the appearence of their spells. Basically, it's a theme with how the spells look, sound, smell, etc. This would make all Sorecers spells look and behave a little differently without actually changing the spell.

Trinkets. THis idea is really out there. It was a class a friend made up for 2nd edition. I'm adapting it to the sorcerer as I go. Since sorcerer learns few spells, think of it as learning to build trinkets that do that effect. Now, depending on what they build the trinket out of will effect the spell. They can only have so many trinkets premade. Instead of casting a spell, they use the trinket. The trinket destroys itself in the usage.

 

[DoctorB]

A couple of thoughts:

1) You could emphasize the "descendent of Dragons" element of sorcerers. They could get some of the abilities of the Dragon disciple class as they gain level. They become half-dragons at 16th level or something...

2) You could take the sorcerer spells and just treat it like a magic point system. Don't limit them at any particular level, but just count the levels of spells they have available according to the book and then let them cast those levels in whatever way they want. Would make them more flexible. If you had 20 levels, could cast 20 first level spells, 5 fourth level spells or any combination.

3) Could let them add a one level increase meta-magic feat for free (and maybe include a chance of backlash if they do that if you want to do the wild magic thing).

 

[Zack2216]

Since sorcerors cast spontaneously, maybe you could use a mana point system. Also, giving the class speacial abilities as they level would also be interesting. I like the halfdragon idea. Maybe polymorph self spell like abilities or something. 'Tis up to you.