I really need DM advice!

[GunnerRecall10]

Hello all,

In the last year or so, my friend and I have been running campaigns for our group of friends (Pathfinder Rules). He has been able to keep almost the same campaign going, while I have not. The reason being is that a few different people are playing mine as compared to his, people that play VERY casually, compared to the way we run his.

As a result, I started second darkness, and ended up dropping it because it was a bit of a problem, I ran into problems with the way that people were running their characters that conflicted with the story, but that was not the biggest reason i decided to stop the campaign. The last two sessions people were not as serious as id like them to be. Im all for having fun playing the game, but when its just all joking around and sidetracking the game, then the game doesnt have a point of continuing in my opinion. The fun of the game should be in playing the game itself, not coming to hang out.

So, we really enjoyed our two campaigns a week we found out, and one of my other less imaginative friends took to running a game. It has been nothing short of dreadful, honestly. Three of the players (myself included) had died last week, and he waiting two and a half hours to just introduce our characters. He has a weird style of having his NPCs roleplay, its just overall boring, and dragged out. To add to that, the other DM and I have been telling him things to do to help improve the campaign. While he does them like we say, its just like were running the campaign.

So I picked up the new Pathfinder AP Carrion Crown and ran it for a week. Everyone loved it, and everyone was participating much more than usual. However, most of my gamers believe in overall friendship over DnD. They believe that my other friend had his campaign first because I quit mine. They said that although its boring, maybe itll improve when he gets better at DMing. Now the three of us that are bored want to tell him that we are going to be running mine, but we know that the other two players wont agree, while the DM will see our points, however may be secretly disappointed.

I can agree with this on normal circumstances, however, having a lesser imagination and DMing isnt the best combination. Even if he had the time slot first, isnt it about having fun playing the game and not suffering through 3 more weeks of overall boringness?

ADVICE PLEASE! I realize ill hear most of what I already know, however fresh opinions would be nice!

 

[Morrus]

However, most of my gamers believe in overall friendship over DnD.

This sounds most excellently healthy! I'm the same way with my group - they're my friends before they're my players.

However, it does sound like their preferred style of play doesn't match yours. There's absolutely nothing wrong with their preferred joking style (after all, we only play this thing to have fun - there's no wrong way to do it), but where that clashes with your own preference is where problems arise.

The usual advice, as always, is "talk to them".

As for the DM who isn't so good - that is unfortunate. There's no great way to go about it, but some are worse than others - and saying "Your'e crap at this!" might be a little too direct. However, you should be honest.

Try some suggestions at first and see how it goes. Phrase them positively - "Y'know what would be totally awesome? If you did X; that would supplement your DMing style brilliantly!"

Have a bit of patience, let him have some practice - nobody is born proficient in a skill - and see if your suggestions help. If they don't, then you're back to working out how to tell him; and you know him better than us.

 

[Mark CMG]

Looks like things are under control. Talking to them is excellent advice, particularly when they are also/first and foremost, friends then players. Here's a thread with some other links to DMing advice that might crop up as useful to you in the future.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...-dming-advice-links-fixed-july-20-2008-a.html

 

[Rhun]

I can agree with this on normal circumstances, however, having a lesser imagination and DMing isnt the best combination. Even if he had the time slot first, isnt it about having fun playing the game and not suffering through 3 more weeks of overall boringness?

3 weeks? If it is only 3 more weeks of overall boringness, just grin and bear it. Be a good friend, suffer a few more sessions of boredom, and then once his game ends, start yours.

 

[BriarMonkey]

Everyone starts out somewhere, and it's the support and practice you get from that point that helps make one a better DM.

To that end, as everyone else has mentioned, talk. Tell the new DM that if he has questions or issues, he should ask - just as you should be willing to help his game along. Offer advice, but don't make it sound like a demand. Remember that you can always sit down after the game and do critiques. When I DM, I always ask for feedback and ideas or suggestions after a game.

As for playstyles, when they differ, they differ. Remember, for most people, gaming is a social event - friends should always be friends first - gaming is just a game.

It sounds like you and they (at least several) have very different ideas about what makes for a fun game - so, since you are (were) the DM, try to adapt and give the players the game they want. You can always introduce elements to help promote what you are looking for, but don't take them to heart - players do the darndest things.

And too, you had mentioned your concern for the story as to part of why the last campaign went nowhere. Remember, it's no one's story if it isn't played. Be adaptive, just because the players are going right and the story needs a left, let them. Think of adventures and building blocks, if they went right, if it works, simply pick up the encounter from the left and move it. Think Legos.

Ultimately, if you really hate what they are doing, then maybe you need to find other players. Either that, or just take some time out and play with your gamers. Have fun and relax and let someone else run things for a bit - you can learn a lot about how they see their characters' motivations, as well as their play styles that way.

K. I'll stop rambling.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Generally speaking, people are not born as great DMs.

It requires a lot of practice - and some understanding friends - to get there.

If you shut down your friend's first attempt at DMing because it isn't as good as someone with experience's attempts, there's a good chance he won't pick it up again and won't ever get any better at it.

 

[GunnerRecall10]

Thank you all for your responses. I agree that we do need to talk to him, but apparently more of the players feel the way I do. Its about having fun and our outside friendships first, however weve been at the campaign for a month and a half, and it hasnt gotten any better.

The truth is, is that when we make campaigns and the current DM in question is a player, he never makes a heavy roleplay type character. Hes usually a fighter, or currently he has a rogue who is a fighter type, therefore he isnt the most imaginative roleplayer. Maybe we shouldve thought of this happening before we let him run a campaign, however once again.. hes a good friend and he wanted to try it out.

Is this a case of "Some people just arent cut out to be DMs, while other people are?"

The campaign is at the point where its 5 weeks in and we havent hit a plot point since the first session.

 

[Oryan77]

The campaign is at the point where its 5 weeks in and we havent hit a plot point since the first session.

Have you guys told him this yet? If you don't give a guy constructive criticism, then he's not really going to improve. He may think that because he's been busy during the game with random stuff, that it means you guys are "hooked". You may need to tell him that you guys want to get going with the adventure and you need a way to get involved soon.

One of my players started DMing for his first time. After the first session, we didn't really have any plotline to follow and had no clue what to do. We spent the entire session roaming around and didn't get involved in anything. I pointed this out to him as soon as the game ended. I gave him some pointers and he seemed to take it to heart. The 2nd session was a little better, but I'm still kind of confused about what we should do to get this adventure going. We may have picked up on an adventure hook, but I'm not totally sure yet. We'll see the next time we play.

Just be patient with your DM, be helpful, and be encouraging. I've had friends DM that were not the greatest players, but we managed to still enjoy playing in their games when they were DMing. It's surprising how players can really help to make a guy be good at DMing. I know I've had good DMing sessions just because the players interacted with me in a way that got me more into the game.

 

[WizarDru]

Is this a case of "Some people just arent cut out to be DMs, while other people are?"

The campaign is at the point where its 5 weeks in and we havent hit a plot point since the first session.

Well, that's hard to say. I firmly believe that DMing is a skill-set, but I also believe that it's a skill-set that can be learned. However, there are different styles of DMing and not everyone will be able to master them. I excel, for example, at improvisation. I am not the most dedicated note-taker. Depending on my players and the kind of game I could run, that could be a benefit or a liability.

It sounds like your friend is simply making a lot of beginner DM mistakes. Mistakes that are, frankly, correctable. Not bringing in new PCs because he's trying to reach a certain point in the story (that he's framed in his mind) is a fairly classic rookie mistake that sometimes even DMs with decades of experience can make (I know I've done it once or twice).

Is it possible he's trying to run a sandbox game and didn't make that clear? Or perhaps he hasn't realized he might need to nudge your group towards the story or plot he's expecting you to reach on your own. There's certainly no shame in telling him that the group is getting a tad bored trying to find a plot or an adventure...and it shouldn't be a test of your friendship to do so.

Simply put, if you really are his friend (and he yours) then he should be able to take gentle but constructive criticism. This doesn't mean break his heart or even say 'let's stop this now!', but explain that the group is kind of feeling that something's missing. If he's very excited to run his own game (and good for him if he is, enthusiasm is one of the most important elements to a good DM) then encouraging him will help. I realize you've already done this to some degree, but have you actually made it clear what you see as the problems?

If you have and he's still having no luck, perhaps suggest to him to changing to an AP like you have in the other game or even just a single stand-alone adventure. One of my friends is a great TECHNICAL DM...he gets the rules fine and is great when someone else gives him material. He's not great with deep NPCs and he's not incredibly creative (and he's the diametric opposite of spontaneous)...but he IS very organized and he runs a rip-roaring fun game, nonetheless. Orcs get stabbed when he's on his game, people have fun.

Now, if his game is a total shambles on all counts, then you need to let him know that, too. You don't have to be mean or brutal or anything like that. There are diplomatic ways to put it. But if you're his friends, you owe it to him to tell him that 'it's just not working.' You don't have to say 'it's because you can't run a combat well or motivate us', you could just say that 'it's just not working for us...maybe its the style or pacing.'

But I think if you tell him this and he says 'give me one more chance', then you owe it to him to try one more time. If you see no improvement, tell him that you really appreciate how hard he tried but that you'd rather have fun WITH him and that you were having a lot more fun AS A GROUP when he was a player. If I were your friend, that's what I'd want, anyhow.

 

[S'mon]

However, most of my gamers believe in overall friendship over DnD.

This is Madness!!