D&D 5E I think I finally get how hiding works

[designbot]

I've seen a lot of theories for when hiding is allowed, and what it does. After reviewing all of the relevant rules in the 5th edition PHB, I think it does make sense, but you have to jump all over the place to put it together.

Key points:

• "Hidden" is not defined as a condition.
• You don't gain advantage specifically from being hidden. (You can gain surprise.)
• You gain advantage from being unseen. (p. 194)
• You can give away your location, but still remain unseen.

Hiding is an action that you can attempt. It can serve at least two purposes:

1. You're trying to keep a creature unaware of your presence so you can surprise or sneak past it.
2. A creature is aware of your presence and/or location, but you don't want it to see you.

You can try to hide from a creature's sight, even if the creature is aware of your exact location. (Just like an invisible creature can remain unseen, even if everyone knows where it is.)

To attempt to hide, you make a Stealth check that is contested by the Perception check of any creature looking for you (or the passive Perception of a creature that is not looking for you).

In a lightly obscured area, the creature has disadvantage on Perception checks that rely on sight. In a heavily obscured area, the creature is effectively blinded, which means it automatically fails any ability check that requires sight. If a creature can't see you, it can try to guess where you are, or aim at your known location. If it aims at the wrong location, it misses, and if it aims at your correct location, it attacks with disadvantage.

By default, most creatures can only hide when they are unseen by a creature (for instance, in a heavily obscured area, or behind total cover). Page 177 states:

You can’t hide from a creature that can see you…

Various features override this rule by allowing you to hide when you are "only lightly obscured" or "obscured only by a creature that is at least one size larger than you".

These sentences (on pages 177 and 194) have been interpreted to mean that, once a creature knows your location, you can't hide from that creature in the same spot again:

…if you make noise (such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase), you give away your position.

If you are hidden—both unseen and unheard—when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.

I disagree. Giving away your location is different from remaining unseen. You should be able to attack, and hide in the same spot again, as long as you still meet the vision requirements that allowed you to hide in the first place. Creatures will know you are there, but they will have disadvantage on attacks because they can't see you.

In summary, for most creatures, hiding is only useful as a way to avoid detection (because being unseen is both the prerequisite and the effect). However, if you have an ability that allows you to attempt to hide in a lightly obscured area, or behind another creature, then hiding can be useful even when creatures are aware of your location, because it makes you unseen, which grants advantage.

Edge case:

If you hide in an area that a creature can't see, then sneak into a less-obscured area, are you still hidden?

If you move into an area that is not obscured from the creature's vision, it usually sees you unless it is distracted:

In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the Dungeon Master might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack before you are seen.

If you move into a lightly or heavily obscured area, the creature has to make Perception vs. Stealth checks to see you.

What Can You See? One of the main factors in determining whether you can find a hidden creature or object is how well you can see in an area, which might be lightly or heavily obscured, as explained in chapter 8.

Edit: One could interpret the rules to mean that, if you are hiding and you move into a lightly obscured area, you are automatically spotted, unless you have an ability that lets you "try to hide when you are lightly obscured".

I interpret that as just describing where you can try to hide. Once you have successfully hidden, you stay hidden "until you are discovered or you stop hiding". (p. 177)

 

[HabitualErrant]

I think that this is pretty comprehensive, just missing one factor which I think deserves specific mention - cover. Even in an un-obscured you can be unseen, and thus attempt to hide, while behind something that gives full cover like a large tree or rock. Obviously if there was just one boulder in the middle of a brightly lit area then you couldn't really hide behind it, only take cover, but if there was a series of them and you hadn't been spotted then I think that the DM could ask for a stealth check to dash from one to the next across the area without being seen.

 

[designbot]

True. And, of course, in this example, you'd only hide to avoid detection. You would automatically be unseen behind total cover (and better yet, couldn't be targeted directly at all), whether you hid or not.

 

[designbot]

Can you stick your head out from a rock (or creature) you are hiding behind and attack with advantage?

I would say no. Hiding does not grant advantage—being unseen does—and you are no longer unseen as soon as you pop your head out.

 

[HabitualErrant]

I'd agree with that. Specifically, I'd say that in order to make an attack from full cover you'd have to move far enough to get line-of-sight, which would mean that you weren't in full cover any more. As such you would also no longer be hiding since line-of-sight coupled with the rule that creatures in combat are fully aware of their surroundings means that you've been spotted.

An exception to this might be during the first round. If a creature is surprised when you attack like that from hiding then I'd give advantage on the attack. Maybe that needs refining before being used as a rule, though, so for now I'll just do that kind of thing on a case-by-case basis.

 

[designbot]

You might also be able to remain unseen and attack with advantage if the enemy was distracted, or if the area that you popped your head into was lightly obscured (hiding behind a rock in moderate foliage, for instance).

 

[KarinsDad]

I'm still a bit confused on surprise though.

It doesn't seem to take into account creatures that are unseen, but not hiding.

For example, PCs are walking down a trail. They pass a large rock formation which a Bugbear is sitting behind. The Bugbear is not making any significant noise and because of the rock formation, he's unseen. He's not really trying to hide because there is no need.

Both sides are unseen, but neither is trying to hide.

As the PCs walk past the rock formation and come into the view of the Bugbear, should the DM use passive perceptions of the PCs vs. the stealth of the Bugbear? Should the DM use passive perceptions of the Bugbear vs. the stealth of the PCs?

Does this change if there is a waterfall nearby which obscures any noises of either group?


If the answer is that both sides just simultaneously see each other, no surprise, then that means that an unseen group cannot accidently startle another group. The unseen group has to be hiding and aware ahead of time of the other group.

 

[HabitualErrant]

I think that I'd rule that both sides are surprised, so there's no effect - or maybe both sides skip the first round of combat is that's relevant. If the PCs in that situation were expecting trouble but the bugbear wasn't, then I'd consider giving the PCs surprise if it worked in the context of what was going on though.

 

[designbot]

If the answer is that both sides just simultaneously see each other, no surprise, then that means that an unseen group cannot accidently startle another group. The unseen group has to be hiding and aware ahead of time of the other group.

That's correct. Page 189 says "If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other."

 

[samursus]

• You don't gain advantage from being hidden. (You can gain surprise.)

• 
  
  I would challenge this assertion based on this line from the 5B.
  
  If you are hidden—both unseen and unheard—when
  you make an attack, you give away your location when
  the attack hits or misses. (Boldface mine)
  
  According to this I would posit that Hidden=unseen+unheard, thereby being hidden by default means being unseen and thereby gaining advantage.
  
  What do you think?
  
  Edit: rereading the OP, I think you recognize this and are merely stating that it's the unseen state that technically provides the advantage. Would you agree that hidden=unseen+unheard? If so maybe that would be a good item item to put in your key points list.
  
  It strikes me as a good way to define the Hide action, as a visual component and an audial component. Cover, obscured, invisible would be the visual requisite and the Stealth skill would be the audial?