I think TSR was right to publish so much material

[Dausuul]

I asked this elsewhere, but as I recall, the triggering event for TSR's collapse, the straw that broke the camel's back, was the return of a mountain of books from the fiction side of things. I know that TSR produced way too many game books, but I wonder how much the fiction had to do with its demise? That is, how long would TSR have survived if they didn't have the fiction lines, or if the fiction lines had been much smaller?

Since the fiction lines were, for quite a while, bringing in far more money than the games, I doubt it would have helped--they wouldn't have had the crisis with all those returned books, but the gaming side would have crashed that much faster.

 

[JohnRTroy]

I asked this elsewhere, but as I recall, the triggering event for TSR's collapse, the straw that broke the camel's back, was the return of a mountain of books from the fiction side of things. I know that TSR produced way too many game books, but I wonder how much the fiction had to do with its demise? That is, how long would TSR have survived if they didn't have the fiction lines, or if the fiction lines had been much smaller?

It could be one or two over-ordered books that caused that problem.

If I remember correctly, one of the key things that hurt GDW in a big way was a huge order that was returned. EGG told me that it was just one product, and while he didn't identify the product, I believe that one product was something called the Desert Storm Fact Book, a folio that cashed in on the first Iraq war, and the mass return of books really hurt GDW.

So can anybody think of a book that TSR could have taken a big hit on?

 

[LurkMonkey]

The thing about this is that those competing games and settings were appealing to people, otherwise they would not be competing, and wouldn't be fondly recalled today. I don't know if TSR's demise was brought about by too many settings, but rather by way too many books for those settings. Plus, it wasn't that it was splitting the hobby, but rather it was splitting TSR's resources. This seemed to be exacerbated by TSR throwing good money after bad by continuing to pour out books for settings that should have just been one or two books or a boxed set, or at least a much shorter line of products. Gamers who might have been fully satisfied with the first year or so of releases for Ravenloft, for example, ended up seeing a huge number and variety of books that, by the end, weren't appealing to anyone.

Oh I absolutely agree. When I mentioned the hobby splitting into subgenres, I didn't mean to infer these subgenres were inferior. On the contrary, I still posit that the 2e era saw some of the best 'fluff' writing, as evidenced by some of the testimonials on this very thread. In fact, I still use much of my 2e material for inspiration. I even run a straight pre-Faction War 2e-themed Planescape game using the Pathfinder engine.

I think your word, resources is a much better descriptor. TSR spread its resources thinly. It put out a lot of great stuff, 'classics' if you will, but the sad fact is if you try to please everybody, you end up pleasing nobody.

As the straw that broke the camel's back, I have no idea. My first whiff of trouble during that time was when my Dragon Magazine stopped showing up at my barracks' mailroom.

Again, I LOVE all the stuff they put out during that period. But for TSR it was a bad business move. Still, alls well that ends well, eh?

 

[Hussar]

Heh, LurkMonkey and ColonelHardison - we're actually of an age I think. I started about 79/80 myself. "Old enough to be grognards, not old enough to be pioneering grognards!" - I like that.

That is, how long would TSR have survived if they didn't have the fiction lines, or if the fiction lines had been much smaller?

I think it's fair to say that the fiction lines were considerably larger than the RPG lines. While I realize there was a fair bit of return on the fiction lines, I thought it was the returns of RPG's that was the big problem.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

If I remember correctly, one of the key things that hurt GDW in a big way was a huge order that was returned. EGG told me that it was just one product, and while he didn't identify the product, I believe that one product was something called the Desert Storm Fact Book, a folio that cashed in on the first Iraq war, and the mass return of books really hurt GDW.

I had that book. For that matter, it may still be hidden away in my parents' garage. I'll have to check sometime. I recall it being ubiquitous for a while, and I still occasionally see it show up in bargain bins and used bookstores.

 

[AllisterH]

It would have to be a book that

a) was ubiquitous in 2ndhand book stores and

b) a book that TSR was giving out for free through the RPGA. What were those products Erik Mona mentioned as being in stacks of when he wa sin the RPGA?

 

[WayneLigon]

So can anybody think of a book that TSR could have taken a big hit on?

I seem to remember that one of the major straws that broke the camel's back was the Buck Rogers license. TSR put out a jack-ton of stuff on it without apparently knowing or caring that it was a dead-weight IP.

 

[Orius]

I think part of the problem is that they erred on the side of being safe. They seemed to go to pains to avoid power creep, but ended up dispensing with a lot of what appealed to gamers about D&D. I think they could have afforded to concentrate a bit more on the fantastical elements of their respective settings.

I feel the same way. The historics for the most part feel a bit too mundane, there's not enough legend and folklore mixed into it for my taste.

I heard of Jakandor and saw one or two of the books when they were released, but never saw all of them. Other than not promoting it well-enough, I think TSR did something right with Jakandor - they started out with the intention of only doing three books, and stuck to the plan. I wish they'd done that with more of their settings; I'd much rather be left wanting more than to get sick of something due to how much of it I got.

Jakandor kind of comes off as partially a prototype of WotC's current setting strategy; release a setting book, and then let the DM develop it at will. Also it was kind of modular, you just plugged it into your own campaign world anywhere you wanted it, Council of Wyrms and Tale of the Comet seemed to be based on a similar principle (Tale of the Comet was also released under the Odyssey label), though Wyrms was more of a mini-setting, while Comet was a big module.

Or conversly, instead of being a new approach, it could be seen as a throwback to the old World of Greyhawk, which had just the main setting book and was supported through modules rather than boxed sets.

 

[LurkMonkey]

I seem to remember that one of the major straws that broke the camel's back was the Buck Rogers license. TSR put out a jack-ton of stuff on it without apparently knowing or caring that it was a dead-weight IP.

I do remember wondering WTF they were doing when they were pimping that tired property out. I'm sure that cost them a pretty penny.

 

[JohnRTroy]

I'm not sure if the Buck Rogers property would have been a hugely returned item, as I think bookstores have to make returns in the first year or so. It would have had to been sold in bookstores. Was it a novel? Was it something bookstores might have bought like Spellfire?

The Buck Rogers game is probably the only property that would cause a question mark in ethical accountability. Lorraine was a member of the Flint Dille trust, and was basically licensing her own property, both getting flat fees, and any royalty payments. (And they didn't just stop with one game but then came out with another game) But using such resources for a property of questionable long term value is a bit tough to swallow, and regardless of anything else positive or negative you can say about Ms. Williams, this would have been considered a conflict of interest or an ethics violation in most other companies, and had TSR been a public company with shareholders and stakeholders involved there probably would have been action taken against this.