I want balanced and upgradable powers

[Firzair]

Hi.
Thinking about what I would like to see in 5e, I found, that I'd like a common measure for powers but I also want powers to be "upgradeable".

For me I found two possible ways to achieve this:
1. Every power/spell has got a value calculated from the effect(s)
E.g. an effect that does 3d6 fire damage in a 15ft radius at medium range has value x, calculated by EFFECTVALUE times AREA FACTOR times RANGE FACTOR.
Other factors for that would be SAVE EFFECT, DURATION etc.
The total value of the power would be the sum of effect values an that power value would define the level of the power/spell.
So you'd have to define all effects with some factors and values so you could calculate the appropriate level for every power/spell.
These powers could then be upgraded to higher levels just by increasing different variables (e.g. higher damage, greater range, longer duration).
The problem I see is you'd need an app / calculator for calculating the values because I see some factors to be decimals.

2. Every effect/power/spell is defined with a set of base values for range, duration, target etc. and a base level.
When a character gains a level he gains say 4 upgrade levels to increase existing powers. Spending 2 upgrade levels could gain you a new power at current character level minus 1.
There should be default tables for:
Range e.g. Self -> Touch -> Close -> Medium -> Long -> Very long -> Extreme -> Same plane -> Other plane
Duration e.g. 1 round -> 2 rounds -> 3 rounds -> 5 rounds -> 8 rounds -> 13 rounds ...
Target e.g. 1 creature -> 2 creatures -> 3 creatures -> 5 creatures ...
Target area e.g. 5 ft diameter -> +5 ft diameter

Building powers could be done like this:

Firebolt level 5 [elemental, destruction]
Base effect FIRE (base duration: instantanous, base target: 1 creature / area 5 ft diameter, base range: touch, base save: reflex for half, base damage: 1d6 fire base level: 1)
Upgrade to medium range (+2 levels), Upgrading damage +2d6 fire for a total of 3d6 fire damage (+2 levels).

Fireball level 5 [elemental, destruction]
Base effect FIRE (base duration: instantanous, base target: 1 creature / area 5 ft diameter, base range: touch, base save: reflex for half, base damage: 1d6 fire base level: 1)
Upgrade to medium range (+2 levels), Upgrading area of effect to 15 ft diameter (+2 levels).

Some base effects would use non-default tables for upgrading duration, range (e.g. teleport) etc.

The second option seems somewhat easier and in any case you'd need some common effort to find the right values for the base effects, but it all would make the creation and balancing of classes / powers somewhat easier I think.
I see a small problem the balancing of casters (wizard, cleric) / non-casters, because casters have a greater felxibility due to different spells in their repertoire, but you could balance this by giving non-casters the possibility to upgrade fixed powers to character level + 1.
If you like to use the At-will, Encounter and Daily power distinction, you can give encounter powers a free 1 level upgrade and daily powers a free 3 levels upgrade. And upgrading at-will-powers should perhaps cost 2 upgrade levels...

What do you think?

Firzair

 

[FireLance]

Frankly, I'd rather have a simpler approach to "upgradeable" powers:

Effect: +1[W] damage.
11th level: +2[W] damage.
21st level: +3[W] damage.​

Done.

 

[mkill]

I like the simplicity of the powers system. You don't have to spend a lot of time thinking about what your character can do. You don't need to negotiate with the DM whether it's possible to crest your blade in ice and smack that orc. You just go Frost Backlash *bamf* Next.

That is, there is a disadvantage to that simplicity. One, it can get repetitive. The first time you Swordburst a bunch of mooks it's amazing, the 10th time it's just what you do.

Second, the system doesn't support on-the-fly maneuvers very well. The DM can, of course, allow any kind of crazyness you can come up with, but there is no basic framework to come up with effects and maneuvers on the fly, even for fairly basic things like a disarm, or just throwing a raw magic discharge.

If 5E wants to be everything to everybody, it has to find a good compromise between 3E "maneuvers defined by the combat system", 4E "everything is in your power cards" and Ars Magica or Mage "framework for spontaneous magic".

I'd like to see:
* basic maneuvers as "powers" usable by everyone: charge, disarm, grapple, trip, throw, distract, push, pull
* defined maneuvers / spells / powers (like 4E, with simple extra damage at higher level)
* a rough framework for DMs / players to design their own powers

At the basic level, the power design framework is a kind of "make your own power card". For example, it would allow the Wizard to design a new fireball version that deals cold damage and freezes instead. This would then be a new power to learn, at an appropriate level.

For groups who are comfortable with the rules system and want more flexibility, this system also supports spontaneous generation of maneuvers. For example, a fighter who wants to charge across the room, jump over the altar and push the evil cultist into the demon pit with a mighty swing of his hammer can do so. He "pays" the equivalent of an encounter power.

This kind of system has to be optional, because it tends to overwhelm newcomers and casual players. Don't forget that many D&Ders are perfectly happy with having all their abilities fixed on power cards and ready to go. They are just not typically the type of player who hangs out at RPG boards to discuss the game at length.

 

[mcintma]

Yikes, you guys are describing exactly what I *don't* want. I'm not a fan of overly codified powers where they do damage in a certain range and have the same effect based on level. To me that feels bland, although I'll readily admit it's much easier to balance.

Nor do I want a power that just does 'something' irrespective of logic and cannot be used creatively to do 'something else it should do'. A 'flame sword' power should cast light, consume oxygen, light things afire, scare off wolves, etc.

Don't mean any insult , just wanted to represent the other side on this thread

 

[Savage Wombat]

What WotC needs to do is to figure out a way to "hide" the power-levelling function in the system, just like roles were "hidden" in the core classes before 4E made them explicit. Then those of use who don't like the feel of 4E might not be bothered by it as much.

 

[BobTheNob]

In so far as 4e's growth system was concerned, I didnt like the upgrading when it "I really like power X, but power Y is just more better (me good english now!)".

I would so prefer if they has some way of allowing lower level powers to up so you could hold onto that power you liked without gimping yourself. Fireball is a classic : Our wizard wasnt a powergamer...he just like things that went boom, and when the time came he was sad to have to let it go, would have been nice if he had an option to just "Up it" instead.

But that was 4e's crutch, dont even know how 5e is going to handle this.

 

[MichaelSomething]

They could simply have a "Fireball" spell and a "Super Fireball" spell at a higher level and a "Super Mega Fireball" at an even higher level.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Yikes, you guys are describing exactly what I *don't* want. I'm not a fan of overly codified powers where they do damage in a certain range and have the same effect based on level. To me that feels bland, although I'll readily admit it's much easier to balance.

Nor do I want a power that just does 'something' irrespective of logic and cannot be used creatively to do 'something else it should do'. A 'flame sword' power should cast light, consume oxygen, light things afire, scare off wolves, etc.

Don't mean any insult , just wanted to represent the other side on this thread

95% of the uses at a minimum are covered by the codification. If you want to light things on fire with a flame sword, sure. That's why you have a DM. For the remaining 5%. (I'd point out that the 4e fireball is no blander than really old versions of the fireball where a fireball's ability to be a ball of fire is assumed by the spell name - 4e also adds keywords).

In my games we have players using their powers creatively. You seem to be implying that this doesn't happen. Why?

 

[Quickleaf]

They could simply have a "Fireball" spell and a "Super Fireball" spell at a higher level and a "Super Mega Fireball" at an even higher level.

This idea - called Spell Paths - was suggested way back in 2e by Wolfgang Baur (in Dragon, can't remember issue #) and picked up a bit later by Sean Reynolds over here: Path Magic.

It could represent an option for wizard advancement that strikes a middle ground between simple damage dice scaling and complex similar spells, while also taking a strong stance about giving each wizard a distinctive theme. In the path system, for example, a wizard might pick up "Flame" which begins with burning hands and progresses into fire ball and eventually minute meteors. However, a bunch of traits of "Flame" magic, like casting time, type or damage dice, and secondary effects (the stuff [MENTION=55485]mcintma[/MENTION] mentions), are the same for each spell. So you don't have to reproduce large swaths of text, instead just distinguishing what improves on the past spell. For example, fireball might simply be an area burst version of burning hands with more damage.

I'm not saying this should be the one system for magic, but it could make a handy setup. Then if a wizard player wants to really get into customizing their spells they could "step off the path."

 

[mcintma]

95% of the uses at a minimum are covered by the codification. If you want to light things on fire with a flame sword, sure. That's why you have a DM. For the remaining 5%. .

In my games we have players using their powers creatively. You seem to be implying that this doesn't happen. Why?

For sure the DM can always ad-lib whatever they want to add realism, kudos on you for running it that way. But from my admittedly non-extensive 4e experience (I've played about 6 sessions, including at Gen Con, and I own the core books), the powers are intended to do no more or less than what's described in the power text (usually x dice damage + some effect that lasts 1 round and poofs out).

From what I can tell, 4ePHB p.276, 'Type' of damage like Fire does not RAW imply setting things afire or generating heat. Pls correct me if wrong.