D&D 5E I want skills decoupled from stats. Suggestions?

[TheCosmicKid]

Skill points in my proposal would be your natural aptitude. Call them something else if you want. Aptitude points?

Well, then the two different mechanics you're stacking on top of each other seem to be aptitude points and ability scores. Like, I put a high score in Dexterity because I want my character to be good at dexterity things, and then I turn to the skill system and see I need to assign these aptitude points to represent the same thing. My suggestion, if you want more granularity in how the game measures natural aptitudes, would be to break up the ability scores.

 

[FrogReaver]

To everyone,

Maybe we need to have a brief discussion about why everyone didn't like 3e skills.

I didn't like the 3e skill system either but it may have been more a matter of implementation than anything else. What reasons does everyone have for disliking that system. Are those same reasons going to apply to the system I proposed or is it just that my proposoal resembles something you disliked before even though the actual reasons you dislike the 3e skill system may not apply to my proposal?

 

[FrogReaver]

Well, then the two different mechanics you're stacking on top of each other seem to be aptitude points and ability scores. Like, I put a high score in Dexterity because I want my character to be good at dexterity things, and then I turn to the skill system and see I need to assign these aptitude points to represent the same thing. My suggestion, if you want more granularity in how the game measures natural aptitudes, would be to break up the ability scores.

I don't know what you mean there? Maybe you can elaborate? How would one break up the ability scores?

 

[FrogReaver]

I'm just homing in on this one line. I think I've caught all your goals. Sorry, if not. Here's my thought:

Constraints:
* Still needs to work with bounded accuracy
* That means proficiency bonus + something on par with stats
* Try not to keep this as a plug-and-play module instead of rewriting a bunch of other stuff
* Personal preference: Skill points in 3E would be a step backwards. Avoid those. YMMV.

With those in mind, here's some implementation ideas:
* Group skills into a handful of categories: Social (intimidate, persuasion, intuition, deception, etc.), exploration (survival, investigation, animal handling), knowledge (history, religion, nature, medicine), cunning (stealth, sleight of hand, perception), and physical (acrobatics, athletics).
* Each class has "Affinities" for certain categories. Some classes may have "minor Affinities" in a category.
* Rogue might get Affinity with Cunning and Physical, with minor Affinity for Social. (Or pick two of the three for full Affinity and the third is Minor.)
* Rangers might get Affinity with Physical and Exploration, with minor in Cunning
* For single-classed characters, an Affinity essentially adds a bonus equal to the Proficiency bonus. Minor Affinity grants half this value. (Design note: this should be roughly in line with the primary and secondary ability score bonuses, math-wise. At least enough to be balanced and decoupled.)
* For multi-class characters, we treat it a little like multi-classed casters:
* Create an Affinity table that pretty much looks exactly like the Proficiency bonus advancement.
* Classes with Affinity add their levels together to determine the character's Affinity bonus.
* Classes with Minor Affinity add half their level to determine Affinity bonus.
* Classes with no Affinity don't count.

Design note: Why use categories? Because not doing so would be redundant with selecting proficiencies. By grouping them into categories, characters can have an affinity for something in which they're essentially untrained. This allows for greater variation in characters.

Alternate system for avoiding categories:
* All classes grant affinity for all skills listed as options for Proficiency.
* It may be appropriate to refine this list into full and Minor Affinities, potentially expanding the circle of skills.

Thanks for the well thought out post. I'll have to comment more on it later.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

I don't know what you mean there? Maybe you can elaborate? How would one break up the ability scores?

For example, the Dexterity score goes away and becomes an Acrobatics score, a Sleight of Hand score, and a Stealth score.

 

[FrogReaver]

For example, the Dexterity score goes away and becomes an Acrobatics score, a Sleight of Hand score, and a Stealth score.

Okay... so which of those factors into your damage and attack roll with daggers?

 

[bid]

Why do I get the feeling that no one is listening to me.

Proficiency stays the same in my proposal. Stat bonus is replaced by skill points. You still get +6 proficiency and +5 from skill points if you want. That's the same total as you can max out in the game now.

Yes, yes. I perfectly understood.
You said you wanted a finer resolution than what proficiency gave, or at least that's how I understood it.

 

[Mercule]

To everyone,

Maybe we need to have a brief discussion about why everyone didn't like 3e skills.

I didn't like the 3e skill system either but it may have been more a matter of implementation than anything else. What reasons does everyone have for disliking that system. Are those same reasons going to apply to the system I proposed or is it just that my proposoal resembles something you disliked before even though the actual reasons you dislike the 3e skill system may not apply to my proposal?

Too fine grain with no benefit. In practice, you maxed out skills or they weren't relevant. Knowledge skills were a possible exception.

I actually rather like the 5E skill system. It has the right level of granularity, thanks to bounded accuracy and the proficiency bonus mechanic. At the same time, there are enough options to avoid a samey-samey feel, especially with ability scores included.

Here's something I learned while figuring out Fate, though: There's not much to be gained from having both a skill system and a stat system. They can actually work against one another. About the only system I know of that does it well is the Storyteller (WoD) system. Generally, a system should pick one and, at best, allow the other to modify it. I'd actually go so far as to say that it's even better if you just pick one.

In that light, I'm going to offer the idea that D&D 5E didn't actually have a skill system. It has a stat system with a thin layer of bonuses over the top of it. This perspective actually makes 5E very reasonable.

 

[FrogReaver]

Yes, yes. I perfectly understood.
You said you wanted a finer resolution than what proficiency gave, or at least that's how I understood it.

Then you understood wrong. I said that a system that only depended on proficiency was not granular enough. Why was I talking about that? Because someone suggested a system like that. I've suggested pretty much this whole thread that proficiency stay the same as it is now. What's so hard to understand about that?

 

[Lanefan]

Okay... so which of those factors into your damage and attack roll with daggers?

When throwing? Acrobatics, to hit. None of these for damage (see Strength instead).

Which one factors into initiative is a more interesting question.