I want to believe

[Moff_Tarkin]

We had an argument in our last game session about illusions and what it means to fail a will save against them.

We opened a door in this dungeon to reveal a vampire sitting on a throne, next to a stone coffin. We kill the vampire, whose gaseous form travels into the coffin. Upon opening the coffin we find the body and decapitate/burn it. One of the PCs noticed the magical kama the vampire attacked us with was not in the coffin, at which point he said, “I think something funny is going on.” He got a chance to disbelieve. He failed his save but still figured something was screwy so he asked the cleric to do a detect magic to determine if there was any illusion or trickery at work.

This is where the argument started. The DM’s stance was that, if you fail your will save, you believe the illusion completely and would no longer doubt it or take any action to expose it. I tried pouring water into the coffin to see if it went into any holes or cracks, and our dragon shaman tried spitting acid into the coffin to destroy it. Both times the DM said that we could not do those things. We had failed our saves and believed completely that the illusion was real, and as such would not attempt to test the coffin to uncover trickery in any way.

I always thought the players had the right to determine what their characters believed. For example, there have been some “shady” NPCs that I didn’t trust. And even if they make their bluff check when talking to me, I can still choose to not trust them. I thought the same worked with illusions. Am I wrong on this?

 

[Foxworthy]

Ok, here's the SRD quote.

Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief) Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.


A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.

A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus

So failing the saving throw would mean the characters would believe that it's real. Which would mean that the characters should react to the image like it's real.

And yes, the DM at times can dictate what actions a character takes, for instance when under a mind influencing spell like dominate and I sort of agree with him about this instance for this simple reason...

Your characters believe it to be real, so why would they act like it's not?

How would you feel if you as a player used an illusion or Bluff and the DM said the NPC didn't believe it despite the fact the NPC failed the save? You'd kinda feel cheated right? Which is what the DM may feel when you decide not to role play your character, who believes it's real.

Now, the simple solution would be to role play your characters and cut the vampires head off. Since illusions can't have their heads cut off you would have had proof that it's fake and would no longer believe the illusion.

Refusing to role play your character, who believes the illusion, kinda sucks for the DM.

 

[Vegepygmy]

Am I wrong on this?

In general, no. Foxworthy makes a good point, though. At some point, ignoring the result of the failed save becomes bad roleplaying.

Where I disagree with Foxworthy, however, is that "fails to notice something is amiss" doesn't equal "turns off brain." The player in question noticed that something he reasonably expected to be there was missing; the illusion might be completely convincing in every visual, olfactory, and tactile sense...but that still doesn't explain the missing kama.

IMO, the player was well justified in seeking to investigate further. Indeed, one of the first things I would do if I couldn't find a magic item I had good reason to believe was somewhere nearby would be to cast detect magic, regardless of whether I suspected something else in the area might be an illusion.

DMs should be very, very reluctant to dictate (or deny) a PC's actions. In my opinion, based on the information you've supplied us, your DM overstepped his bounds.

 

[Flatus Maximus]

He got a chance to disbelieve. He failed his save but still figured something was screwy so he asked the cleric to do a detect magic to determine if there was any illusion or trickery at work.

This is where the argument started.

And this is where things went wrong, IMHO. The character failed the save, but the player figured something was screwy. It would not be appropriate for the character to persist in his or her suspicious behavior after failing the Will save. Of course, the player knows something is up, but that has then become metagame.

Edit: I guess we do need a bit more info. What kind of illusion was it? How did you decapitate/burn it?

 

[Vegepygmy]

Now, the simple solution would be to role play your characters and cut the vampires head off.

Um, they did. Notice the OP's use of the word "decapitate?"

Since illusions can't have their heads cut off you would have had proof that it's fake and would no longer believe the illusion.

Apparently, the OP's DM disagrees with you. (And so do I, FWIW. If the illusion is still being directed by the caster, there's no reason it can't appear to have its head cut off.)

 

[Foxworthy]

Um, they did. Notice the OP's use of the word "decapitate?"

I read that line as the OP stating the intent of why they opened the casket, not that they actually attempted that. If they did then the image disappears and they know it was fake. See below on the reason why I feel that a vampire can't direct the image to react.

Apparently, the OP's DM disagrees with you. (And so do I, FWIW. If the illusion is still being directed by the caster, there's no reason it can't appear to have its head cut off.)

In order for it to be directed by the caster the caster needs to be able to see what the illusion is reacting to. Which means at least line of sight. Which would generally mean that if it can see the coffin and the characters, they can see the vampire as well. And seeing the gaseous form would be proof that the image is an illusion. As they didn't mention seeing the gaseous form when they opened the casket I was lead to believe the vampire wasn't around.

Also since the vampire was forced into gaseous form through damage all it can do is return to it's coffin and heal. So if that was it's coffin then it would have reformed to rest. If it wasn't it's coffin it wouldn't have been around to control the figment since it has to head to it's coffin.

I see no reason to believe that the vampire was around to control the image.

Where I disagree with Foxworthy, however, is that "fails to notice something is amiss" doesn't equal "turns off brain."

Never said to turn their brain off. I merely said they shouldn't roleplay acting like something is a miss when the characters don't believe anything to be amiss. They would have been full in their right to move the casket and break it apart looking for the missing kama. Or other actions that could prove that it's an illusion by doing things other than directly trying to diprove.

 

[Vegepygmy]

I see no reason to believe that the vampire was around to control the image.

You are assuming way too much. Who says the vampire is the one controlling the image?

Frankly, we just don't have enough information to know if the DM was running the illusion correctly in the first place. I strongly suspect he wasn't, and that may have something to do with why at least one of his players was discontent to accept the result of his failed saving throw, but I really can't tell without knowing what spell/effect created the illusion, who (if anyone) was controlling it, etc.

But regardless of whether the DM screwed up the illusion or not, I think he was wrong to commandeer the PCs.

 

[milo]

A trick does not mean that it is an illusion. I would be searching the coffin for cracks to see if he could have gone into the coffin deeper. The top one could be a dead body disguised to look like the vampire that we were trying to kill. With a successful knowledge religion check you would know that his equipment should be there, if it is not that means that he isn't there. I would search and destroy the coffin to see if something is below it to try to find a magical item.

 

[Foxworthy]

You are assuming way too much. Who says the vampire is the one controlling the image?

Frankly, we just don't have enough information to know if the DM was running the illusion correctly in the first place. I strongly suspect he wasn't, and that may have something to do with why at least one of his players was discontent to accept the result of his failed saving throw, but I really can't tell without knowing what spell/effect created the illusion, who (if anyone) was controlling it, etc.

Sure, the DM could have messed up on the way he ran illusions and what not. Obviously we will probably never know what exactly happened. Anyway the illusion issue is more of a side issue to the real topic.

But regardless of whether the DM screwed up the illusion or not, I think he was wrong to commandeer the PCs.

I agree and disagree with this. The players should have their characters act appropriately to game effects. If a character believes an illusion the character believes an illusion. If a character had dominate person cast on him and he failed his save I wouldn't expect the Player to refuse to do what the NPC commanded. If the character gets turned to stone I wouldn't expect the players to move the mini around the board and still make attacks.

You lose some control of your character when playing a rpg like dnd under certain game effects. Illusions are one of them. If the characters believed an illusionary wall I wouldn't expect them to walk through it and ignore it.

Of course the DM shouldn't shoe horn them into not thinking of ways to disprove the illusion with out directly acting like it's not real. That's just bad DMing really.

 

[Moff_Tarkin]

Ok, here is some extra information.

The body in the coffin was a programmed illusion. I think that’s what the spell was called. We did decapitate and burn it. One PC argued, rightfully I believe, that our “interaction” with the illusion gave us a saving throw. The DM said that interaction doesn’t give you a free save, you have to have a reason to disbelieve. He said that the illusion of the body was there to fool us into thinking we had killed the vampire for good. Therefore, by decapitating and burning it, we played into what the illusion wanted us to do, and as such got no save for that interaction. Essentially, you don’t get a save for interaction if you interact with the illusion in the way the illusion expects you to.

The biggest problem I have with the whole situation is that while the “save for interaction” argument was going on, the DM actually said, “I don’t care what the book says”