I want to believe

[NewJeffCT]

Moff - I think people were not sure if only one party member knew about the missing kama, or if you all knew about it. If PC-A sees that the kama is missing and announces that to the rest of the group, then the group should start to think it may be an illusion. However, if PC-A sees that the kama is missing, but does not tell the rest of the party (why, I have no idea?) then it would be metagaming for PC-B, C and D to start thinking it's an illusion. I think a few people were not clear on that.

 

[Dross]

There are two ways to get a saving throw against an illusion. One if from interaction, the other (and the one that applies here) is when a PC says “Something fishy is going on” So, when a player gets a “hunch” that something is amiss, does a failed Will save make that “hunch” go away? The player is suspicious then the illusion uses a “Jedi mind trick” to say, “These aren’t the druids your looking for”. That’s sounds like mind affecting to me, and illusions aren’t mind affecting. Before a Will save was even called for, we all had suspicions and hunches that something was wrong. Just because we fail to expose the body as an illusion means that all our intuition has to be thrown out the window.

I would actually say the reasons you got the disbelieve roll is because of your hunch. Failing the save makes you go: I guess my hunch was wrong.

Now, as far as the way I would expect illusions to be handled if I were playing the illusionist. I would understand that illusions could only go so far, only accomplish so much. I would make an illusion of a PC to “threaten” an enemy, in order to give the rouge flank. ...But I would fully understand that there were limits on what illusions could accomplish.

Curious to know how long both you and your DM think the "Illusion PC" would continue to give a bonus to flanking (a couple of replies mention within 5-feet) before disbelieving saves need to be made.

Why does my PC believe the corpse is a phony despite failing his will save? He already suspects it’s a phony due to the missing kama. It looks in feels real but it could be a fake, and besides, He knows from previous experiences that illusions can sometime look and feel totally real, but be totally fake.

So, what would convince you that the situation WAS real and the missing kama is simply somewhere else?

 

[Elethiomel]

After failing his saving throw to determine if it was an illusion. Which was prompted becasue he noticed the missing kama.

Now once he failed his save - he has no reason to doubt the illusion therefore the statement that he doesn't think this is the real body is total metagaming. The PC is now convinced (as reflected by the result of the saving throw) that the illusion is real.

After noticing the missing kama and having the suspicion that it was not the real body, he failed his saving throw against the illusion. He is now convinced there's a body there, and that the body looks exactly like the vampire. That does not mean that all his suspicions are allayed. He may still believe it is a replacement body polymorphed (or, for example, the vampire's twin killed and preserved for this purpose). He just doesn't believe the body itself is an illusion.

He's already noticed something is amiss (the kama is gone, the vampire was acting strangely stupidly by fighting next to his coffin to name two things that came through the OP's post). The illusion does not negate these things. He noticed them before any save was called for. If it had been a real replacement body (or even the actual body of the vampire) he could have tested for an illusion (by interacting) and found none (just the same result as a failed will save vs illusion). He could still assume the body was trickery due to other evidence (like the missing kama and the suspiciously stupid vampire). This is what I mean when I say "an illusion is not more convincing than the real thing".

As I understand the OP, the statement "I don't think this is the real body" was what triggered the Will save, which means the statement came before the save, which means that the suspicion that something was wrong was already in place without taking the save into account.

 

[Moff_Tarkin]

Elethiomel understands what I am getting at. I can’t see why some people dont. Failing a Will save means that the body in the coffin looks real to me. So I think it’s a real body, maybe I think it’s the vampire’s real body. That doesn’t mean all my suspicions and hunches that something else is there go away.

Imagine if Sherlock Holmes did battle with this vampire. Lets say he kills the vampire, opens the coffin, and fails his Will save when he sees the illusion. Holmes immediately turns to Watson and says, “We’re done here”. No investigation, no deductive reasoning; after one round Holmes calls it quits and just walks out.

That scenario seems extremely ridiculous. Sherlock Holmes is the world’s greatest detective. He would notice the missing kama; he would notice how the vampire foolishly fought right next to his coffin; and he would notice a dozen other clues no one here ever would have. Yet according to the viewpoint of the DM (and many in this post) the great detective would walk right out of there without doing any investigating simply because the body in the coffin didn’t appear to be false.

 

[irdeggman]

Elethiomel understands what I am getting at. I can’t see why some people dont. Failing a Will save means that the body in the coffin looks real to me. So I think it’s a real body, maybe I think it’s the vampire’s real body. That doesn’t mean all my suspicions and hunches that something else is there go away.

No it means that it looks just like what you thought it was supposed to be.

It looked just like the vampire.

Therefor your PC know believes that he was mistaken on the issue.

Imagine if Sherlock Holmes did battle with this vampire. Lets say he kills the vampire, opens the coffin, and fails his Will save when he sees the illusion. Holmes immediately turns to Watson and says, “We’re done here”. No investigation, no deductive reasoning; after one round Holmes calls it quits and just walks out.

That scenario seems extremely ridiculous. Sherlock Holmes is the world’s greatest detective. He would notice the missing kama; he would notice how the vampire foolishly fought right next to his coffin; and he would notice a dozen other clues no one here ever would have. Yet according to the viewpoint of the DM (and many in this post) the great detective would walk right out of there without doing any investigating simply because the body in the coffin didn’t appear to be false.

Boy do you really want to try to bring in things that do not equate.

In the literary world of Sherlock Holmes there is no "magic" there are no "dragons", etc. If there was then it would be different - but you are comparing apples and oranges here.

Real life and D&D do not equate. In real life there is no such things as fireballs, magic missiles, etc.

IMO this is porbably the heart of the issue - you keep on bringing in real life to explain how D&D is supposed to work. This is one of the strong indications of a metagaming style of play - rationalization of PC actions based on player experience and knowledge.

Everytime you bring up arguments like this it strengthens peoples' opinion of metagaming.

Now don't get me wrong here there are 2 distinct issues at play.

1) - How the DM handles the illusions in your game


2) - How the players roleplay their PCs

Most of us are focusing on the latter here - because that was the first post and since you are the player (and only one posting) we have more insight into where you are coming from.

 

[Elethiomel]

No it means that it looks just like what you thought it was supposed to be.

It looked just like the vampire.

Therefor your PC know believes that he was mistaken on the issue.

This does not follow.

They already think it was a dummy corpse. Why would the dummy corpse being a perfect replica halt all further investigation?

 

[Foxworthy]

Elethiomel understands what I am getting at. I can’t see why some people dont. Failing a Will save means that the body in the coffin looks real to me. So I think it’s a real body, maybe I think it’s the vampire’s real body. That doesn’t mean all my suspicions and hunches that something else is there go away.

Imagine if Sherlock Holmes did battle with this vampire. Lets say he kills the vampire, opens the coffin, and fails his Will save when he sees the illusion. Holmes immediately turns to Watson and says, “We’re done here”. No investigation, no deductive reasoning; after one round Holmes calls it quits and just walks out.

That scenario seems extremely ridiculous. Sherlock Holmes is the world’s greatest detective. He would notice the missing kama; he would notice how the vampire foolishly fought right next to his coffin; and he would notice a dozen other clues no one here ever would have. Yet according to the viewpoint of the DM (and many in this post) the great detective would walk right out of there without doing any investigating simply because the body in the coffin didn’t appear to be false.

You still don't get it. No one is saying that you have to walk away or that you're done there.

What they are saying is that when you fail the save you believe the illusion is real. Which means that you should roleplay as if you believe the illusion to be real.

That means no using detect magic to see if it's an illusion. That's metagaming. Because you're casting detect magic because you think it's an illusion, even though your character believes it to be real. The character doesn't even realize their is a reason to suspect it's an illusion.

It doesn't mean that you have to go home and not do anything. You can 100% percent believe that the body is a fake corpse. That means that if you said that you were going to use detect magic on the body to see if someone caste gentle repose on it you'd be fine. You can use other ways to search for the kama.

You didn't do that. Your post have said that you didn't even suspect an illusion till you got a chance to roll a disbelief check. And then when you failed you decide it was an illusion and wanted to cast Detect magic.

THAT'S METAGAMING!

You're only casting detect magic because you failed a saving throw against an illusion. Your hunch was a dice hitting the table. Nothing about that is in character.

 

[Elethiomel]

You didn't do that. Your post have said that you didn't even suspect an illusion till you got a chance to roll a disbelief check. And then when you failed you decide it was an illusion and wanted to cast Detect magic.

THAT'S METAGAMING!

You're only casting detect magic because you failed a saving throw against an illusion. Your hunch was a dice hitting the table. Nothing about that is in character.

I agree with this. There were plenty of other rationales to choose to cast detect magic - believing that the body was illusory was not one of them, and was in fact metagaming.

UNLESS. Unless the character previously (through having failed a will save against an illusion to later find that it had, in fact, been an illusion) had started questioning the reality of anything seeming too inconvenient to the party, or too convenient to the party. "That door just locked as it slammed shut. Awfully inconvenient. It seems real, but I have seen illusions so perfectly crafted everything about them seems real. Try your detection spell!", "A bridge, here, miles from civilization crossing a 1000 foot deep chasm? Too convenient! It might be an illusion, cast your detection spell."

Failing a will save means "you do not notice anything is amiss". But as experience tells you (the character) that something tasting, looking, smelling, feeling, and sounding real may not be enough to determine that something is, in fact, real. Only magic can reveal magic! However, you can't just start with this from out-of-character knowledge. And to avoid accusations of metagaming you should gradually work this paranoid streak into your character. It would likely lead to mass making/purchasing of wands of detect magic, so that everything important could be examined for illusions. Including fellow party members if they ever slip out of sight for even a second.

Of course we do not know whether the phrasing in the OP was verbatim. If the character said, "I do not think this is the real body." *fails will save* "There may be some trickery about it. Is it something changed to look like the vampire? Where did the Kama go, has it been hidden invisibly? Made small? Cast your detection spell to see if there's anything screwy going on." it was not metagaming. From the phrasing in the OP however, it seems like the detect magic question *was* metagaming, but stopping all investigation was definitely over the top for the failed save.

 

[Foxworthy]

However, you can't just start with this from out-of-character knowledge. And to avoid accusations of metagaming you should gradually work this paranoid streak into your character. It would likely lead to mass making/purchasing of wands of detect magic, so that everything important could be examined for illusions. Including fellow party members if they ever slip out of sight for even a second.

I agree a paranoid character could get away with doing what the OP suggested without it seeming as metagaming. Just as long as his paranoia doesn't only happen when he fails a saving throw. Because that becomes very convenient paranoia.

From the phrasing in the OP however, it seems like the detect magic question *was* metagaming, but stopping all investigation was definitely over the top for the failed save.

Sure the DM seems to have some differences in how he runs illusions from what is suggested in the RAW, but it seems to me that the stopping all investigation was more an attempt by the DM to deal with the metagaming. Of course it was the wrong way but DM's are people too and do make mistakes.

 

[NewJeffCT]

DM's are people too and do make mistakes.

Hey, don't let the cat out of the bag on that one. ;=)