I Want To Play An Intelligent Mouse

[Murrdox]

Re: Riding the cat familiar into battle

The Raccoon (named Fergus) will never be a great bard, but that's not the end of the world.

rg

I am currently making a futile effort to control my guffaws at work while thinking of a Raccoon chittering an "Inspire Courage" song.

 

[mattcolville]

How in the world are you pulling a Sorcerer out of this race? Ignoring the Chr penalty?

I'd take Point Blank Shot, if you're going to go with the crossbow. That +1 to damage is pretty significant for someone doing a base of 1d3.

I'm making a Mouse race that has the -8 to Str but no penalty to Chr. I'm making it ECL 2. Frankly I think that intelligent mice, as a race, should be able to have normal charisma.

I'd like to get Weapon Finesse out of the ECL2 mouse package, as well as low-light vision, and maybe something else. I feel like, even with normal charisma, a Mouse is not ECL 2, but I'd rather err on the side of caution. I'm asking my GM to grant me the ability to ignore the Improved Evasion requirement for Scramble. Or, hell, maybe mice have evasion and improved evasion. Man, that'd be nice. I'd have to find some sort of precedent for that, and I don't think I'll be able to. *shrug* Worth a try, though.

I'll have to take a look at other ECL 2 races and see what they're like so I have a yardstick by which to judge what to give my Mouse Race.

 

[Radiating Gnome]

Are there size bonuses to reflex saves? I don't remember, but that could make a difference.

You could make a case for just evasion and a size-based reflex save bonus, that would do just about the same thing.

-rg

 

[Artoomis]

If I were your DM I'd allow you to forgoe the CHA penalty - I think your argument is reasonable there.

I'd give you no HD other than from class(es) and no extra benifits like evansion, etc. They don't fit the race concept, as I see it. They might fit your character concept, but I just don't see them as "mouse-like."

I'd allow as I wrote it above with the exception the of the CHA penalty. No other racial bonuses or benefits.

But that's just me - and I prejudices against ECL races - they have problems with balance and rules mechanics.

 

[FireLance]

Ok, Hyp, I know I've read the book Reepicheep's from but can't for the life of me remember what it is and it's going to bug me until you tell me.

Or until I wake up bolt upright at 2:30 with it in the forefront of my brain. You choose.

I'm feeling nice. Prince Caspian. Voyage of the Dawn Treader. The Last Battle. From the Narnia series by C. S. Lewis. Wasn't there a Narnia d20 thread somewhere?

 

[Spatula]

I'm making a Mouse race that has the -8 to Str but no penalty to Chr. I'm making it ECL 2. Frankly I think that intelligent mice, as a race, should be able to have normal charisma.

Mice more charismatic than dwarves? If I were a dwarf, I'd be insulted! Think of how annoying it is listening to Alvin and his chipmunk cohorts squeeking on about whatever... and they're chipmunks! Talking mice would be sooo much worse. On the other hand, they do have the whole cute thing going for them.

 

[Gez]

It's not a question of cuteness, but of personality. Mice are shy. They probably would get something like a -2 or -4 Charisma, but -8 is overkill (remember, by the way, that it's not actually -4 or -8, see the table in the DMG; a race with Cha 4 (average) putting a 18 in that stat only gets 8). In general, when your racial ability adjustment is negative, the result for 18 is equal to the double (average 8 gives 16, average 6 gives 12, etc.).

Something that could help the mouse a bit would be a climb speed (at walking speed). And, considering their weight, they would use Dex rather than Str for Climb, Jump, and Swim checks (I've seen mice jumping something like 10 times its height, and I'm not talking about jerboas).

Simply put, muscular strength grows with the square of size, while weight grows with the cube -- that's why ants are able to lift 70 times their own weight, while no humans on Earth could ever perform this deed. That's also why housecats may make 2-meters high jumps (I've seen mines do that), while it's impossible to humans (without lots of running, Flosburry flop technique, and/or pole/springboard).

The only effective melee combat tactic for a mouse would be to enter the opponent's square (would there really be an AoO -- it's not likely to be noticed), climb on the foe, and sting it with some poisoned syringe.

 

[Artoomis]

In general, when your racial ability adjustment is negative, the result for 18 is equal to the double (average 8 gives 16, average 6 gives 12, etc.).

Really? I am unfamiliar with this rule. Is it a Savage Species rule?

I though you just took the score and subtracted 10 to get the racial modifiers for a monster as a PC.

As for the CHA modifer, I wouldn't have a problem with making it "0" based on a PC race for a mouse - they have -4 net physical stats anyway, so +2 mental stats leaves them still with a net negative total, especially when considering that physical stats are valued more highly by WotC designers. Balance-wise it's fine, and logically it's okay, too. I see no reason why the aveage charisma for a PC Race "mouse" should be only 2-4.

You might note that they should have a climb speed of 15 - as noted in both my examples of how to construct a PC mouse.

A few other general comments on this pretty cool concept:

I don't know about them as sorcerors, but they'd make mighty fine monkish scouts. They've got a nice hide bonus as well as a nice racial dex and wisdom bonus - a starting Dex of 22 and/or Wisdom 20 is possible!!.

I'm thinking monk because if you go without any equipment you are very, very hard to notice as being any kind of threat (oh look, it's just a mouse) but would be hard to kill with a possible starting AC of 29: 10 +8 (size) +6 (Dex) +5 (Wis). You'd only have Str 6, Con 8, Int 8 and Cha 8 (if we go with a "0" modifier) in this case, so hit points and Fort saves wouldn't be very good, but AC, Reflex and Will saves would be great! AC would even be 29 vs. touch attacks and 23 flat-footed.

The biggest single problem will be grappling - the size modifer of -16 will be a killer. Best to take the maximum possible ranks in "Escape Artist" to offset this problem - it's a Dex-based skill, so that will help.

I see sorceror as being only moderately successful. This class would not play into the strengths of being a mouse at all - it might not be very survivable. Too slow to get away, too weak and small to have much of a chance against anyone simply grabbing and crushing you (grappling - a likely -18 to the grapple check, -16 size and -2 Str).

 

[Arcturus_Rugend]

In general, when your racial ability adjustment is negative, the result for 18 is equal to the double (average 8 gives 16, average 6 gives 12, etc.).

I think this was the guideline, though only for non-physical ability scores, that was presented in the DMG. Sav. Sp., IIRC, did away with this and you apply negative modifiers to the base score, just like you would a positive.

 

[Spatula]

It's not a question of cuteness, but of personality. Mice are shy. They probably would get something like a -2 or -4 Charisma, but -8 is overkill

Well, I wasn't being serious, but yeah, mice would definitely be at the low end of the Charisma scale in the animal kingdom. Mice are the little 9.8 ounce weaklings that the bigger animals push around. And note that no animal has a Charisma better than 7 (a -4 stat adjustment), so even when you slap on an Awaken spell (+1d3 Charisma, average 2) a charismatic talking animal is still going to have a -2 Charisma penalty. Most animals will have a bigger penalty. Mice would be around -6 after being Awakened, since they start off with a 2 Charisma (a -8 stat adjustment).