I was unconsious 20 minutes ago, but I'm ok now..

[Sir_Darien]

I, like most gamers not fortunate enough to be playtesting 4e, was chomping at the bit to get info on the mechanics of how 4e games were going to be different than the 3-3.5 gamers I've enjoyed for the past 8 years. With the D&D Experience a few weeks ago and trickle of leaked information since then the community now has an idea of what the environment in 4e is going to look like. Over the days of the DDXP and ever since then I have scoured the net for all the 4e crunch I could find. Thank you, guy who made the mini-PHB, for making me have wasted my time

At first I was very excited about the changes, granted I had my little gripes and nitpicks here and there: I thought the 1-square diagonals thing was kind of dumb and didn't like the idea of the fudgy DMs out there being able to stun me at will by saying they rolled a 20 vs my will, but I still had an overwhelmingly positive response to what I saw. The combat setup in particular, with no more bogging down for the fighter to swing a billion times, and the cleric ceasing to be little more than a mobile positive energy font impressed me and made me eager to see the full game this June.

Don't get me wrong, I haven't become a "4e hater", but now that the shine has worn off, I feel there are some elements to the mechanics that are going to hurt the believability of the game.

Healing surges are a wonderful mechanical tool. They allow the cleric to be more than just the healer, while still providing extra healing if that is what he chooses to do. They allow the fighter to stay on his feet when he needs the extra hp, and allow the game to be more forgiving of a bad die roll or a tactical blunder by any character. Only one problem, they don't make any sort of real life sense.

If someone comes around and beats you to inches from unconsiousness, you can't take 20 minutes to use 4 healing surges and a few short rests to be back to feeling fine. No one can. Characters in 4e can no longer be hurt, only killed. They can be knocked out, but provided someone can wake them up and they still have healing surges they'll be fine in 20 minutes, tops. It just seems silly. Now I know that the real-world explanation that we're going to get is that the "Second Wind" action is just like we think of it in real life. When we say a boxer or fighter gets a second wind, we mean that he's ignoring the fatigue and injury sustained thus far in the fight in order to aggressively pursue a victory versus his opponent. Okay, second wind kind of makes sense... Only problem is that once the fight is over, that boxer is still battered and bruised, and probably needs time before he's ready to fight again. In short, he's injured.

I really think 4e games could use a SIMPLE mechanic to address this. Some small penalty to attacks or defenses until your next extended rest after being knocked out would be effective, cumulative ko's = cumulative penalty.

Also the bloodied condition doesn't seem to really do anything other that allow you to use some abilities and be targeted by some other ones. This is the same sort of problem as we had in 3e-3.5 games when the figher was at 1/250 hit points and just full attacked swinging for the fences to kill his opponent (without even a dent in his offensive capability). Being bloodied should impose a penalty of some kind, you're banged up after all.

All this said I think 4e will still be a better tactical game than 3e-3.5, I'm just worried about it becoming more miniatures game than an RPG. Don't get me wrong, I like my battlemat, I just want to see the combat being part of the roleplaying, not the roleplaying being that annoying stuff in between combats.

 

[Ebon Shar]

All this said I think 4e will still be a better tactical game than 3e-3.5, I'm just worried about it becoming more miniatures game than an RPG. Don't get me wrong, I like my battlemat, I just want to see the combat being part of the roleplaying, not the roleplaying being that annoying stuff in between combats.

It's not the game system that causes this, it's the players of the game. If you want more role-playing, find players that will play the way you want. Irrespective of the game system, you'll have more fun.

 

[mach1.9pants]

There have been tons of threads on this, and heaps of examples (Achilles vs Hector in Troy) where the 4E model is realistic enough for many people. But, just like 3E, if you are 1HP left from 300 you still fight at full capacity, if you get knocked unconscious and someone brings you to positive HP you fight as if nothing happened. 3&4E have 3 main states alive, unconscious and dead- nothing else. The only difference is the healing (poor word should really be recovery or something) happens in a quicker time frame in 4E. And you don't need a wand of CLW to get you going- just use surges instead. Gamism has trumped simulationism in 4E, if you want long term injury effects (ie HP loss means something more than just HP loss) you are going to have to house rule it just like you would have in 3E

 

[Aurick]

If your players are abusing their healing surges, there are ways to take advantage of the situation and make them wish they hadnt. Just be creative

 

[Mort]

...
If someone comes around and beats you to inches from unconsiousness, you can't take 20 minutes to use 4 healing surges and a few short rests to be back to feeling fine. No one can. Characters in 4e can no longer be hurt, only killed. They can be knocked out, but provided someone can wake them up and they still have healing surges they'll be fine in 20 minutes, tops. It just seems silly. Now I know that the real-world explanation that we're going to get is that the "Second Wind" action is just like we think of it in real life. When we say a boxer or fighter gets a second wind, we mean that he's ignoring the fatigue and injury sustained thus far in the fight in order to aggressively pursue a victory versus his opponent. Okay, second wind kind of makes sense... Only problem is that once the fight is over, that boxer is still battered and bruised, and probably needs time before he's ready to fight again. In short, he's injured.

It's quite clear that the 4e design team decided to pick a side - and picked cinematic reality over "real reality." As this is a fantasy (often high fantasy) game I have no problem with this. Frankly it's a better choice than the (also unrealistic) 3.5 heal times. Also they must have come to the conclusion that with the large amount of healing available rest times are largely meaningless (and really they are in a standard campaign unless you introduce alternative rules), why not make them cinematic.

...
I really think 4e games could use a SIMPLE mechanic to address this. Some small penalty to attacks or defenses until your next extended rest after being knocked out would be effective, cumulative ko's = cumulative penalty.

This is called a death spiral (where the more damage you take the less effective you become) and has it's place in gritty or realistic games. In a game as focused on combat as standard D&D all you're really doing is punishing the players. Even worse, you're punishing those that chose melee builds a hugely disproporionate amount.

Also the bloodied condition doesn't seem to really do anything other that allow you to use some abilities and be targeted by some other ones. This is the same sort of problem as we had in 3e-3.5 games when the figher was at 1/250 hit points and just full attacked swinging for the fences to kill his opponent (without even a dent in his offensive capability). Being bloodied should impose a penalty of some kind, you're banged up after all.

Again I believe in D&D - death spirals are bad. the bloodied condition was introduced to add pacing to combats. Frankly, I think it's just extra bookkeeping, but we'll see.

 

[Pbartender]

I feel there are some elements to the mechanics that are going to hurt the believability of the game.

Here's the thing... I, at least, have never considered D&D in any of its incarnations to a game that has anything to with believability. For me, it has never been a game that was meant to model anything even approaching the way most things work in the real world -- especially when it comes to the heroes and villains. I've always viewed D&D as a game meant to emulate the fantasy fiction of popular novels and action movies, more than anything else.

Think, for a moment, about movies like Conan the Barbarian, The Beast Master, Clash of the Titans, Willow, Red Sonja (okay, so not all of these are good movies, but they make my point ). In respect to those sorts of movies, D&D rules in general are perfectly believable.

Eh, but maybe that's just me. It's not something that bothers me a lot, I just shift my play style slightly to embrace it.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I can understand his concerns... those are my concerns too... i seriously hope there are mechanics (or at least suggestions in th DMG) to beat to give somebody a bad day without beating him down to consciousness ten times...

 

[FadedC]

In some ways injuries are less scary in 4e and in some ways they are more scary. On one hand everyone has ways to heal themselves. On the other hand, once your out of healing surges your just screwed. No amount of clerical healing or wands of cure light are going to save you. The guy who got knocked out and then healing surged up to full is now -4 surges for the day which is a big deal (especialy for the classes that don't get that many). You can imagine that he's all beaten up and bruised.

I have no problem with death spirals, they add realism and they work great for some systems. I'm not sure that D&D is the game for them though.

 

[DandD]

This thread should be merged with other HP-threads that discuss the same thing regarding the "believability" of healing surges and the role of hitpoints (and what they actually mean to start with).

 

[UltimaRatio]

Here's the thing... I, at least, have never considered D&D in any of its incarnations to a game that has anything to with believability. For me, it has never been a game that was meant to model anything even approaching the way most things work in the real world -- especially when it comes to the heroes and villains. I've always viewed D&D as a game meant to emulate the fantasy fiction of popular novels and action movies, more than anything else.

Exactly. When I play D&D, I don't want to be Joe Schmoe, who needs a couple of day's good lie-down to recover from a nasty crack to the back of the head. I want to be John McClane and kick asses even after fighting a kung fu master in an elevator shaft. I want to be Jack Bauer and stride out of the wreckage of a crashed airplane. I want to be a hero.