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Iconic D&D Clerics (Blog)

JRRNeiklot

First Post
Oh come now, it's not that farfetched. Look at it this way.

Rangers:
On one hand, you have an outdoorsy character who fights with two weapons.
On the other, you have an outdoorsy character who fights with bow and arrow.
Both can technically do both, sure, but one is better than the other.

And on the other, er foot, you have an outdoorsy character who fights with a two handed weapon. On the other foot, you have an outdoorsy character who fights with a sword and shield, or who throws daggers, or who, well, I'm running out of appendages.

Clerics:
On one hand, you have a religious character who wields weapons in the name of his god.
On the other, you have a religious character who wields magic in the name of his god.
Both can technically do both, sure, but one is better than the other.

Po-tay-toe, po-tah-toe.

We've always had that. Want to play a priest in robes? Don't wear armor.
 

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jtylerk

Explorer
The Iconic Cleric for me will always be the mace-bashing-armor-wearing-healer-guy, the dude every party needed, but nobody wanted to play (I'll only say we were young)...but then that is different from what I think ought to be...2E and 3.X had it about right.
 

Nimblegrund

Explorer
I think whether the two-weapon fighting ranger makes sense, or if the mace, shield, and spell cleric makes sense, is immaterial. They are archetypes that have been part of the game since the beginning, and when those things leave, it isn't D&D anymore.
 

JRRNeiklot

First Post
I think whether the two-weapon fighting ranger makes sense, or if the mace, shield, and spell cleric makes sense, is immaterial. They are archetypes that have been part of the game since the beginning, and when those things leave, it isn't D&D anymore.

The 2wf ranger is a relatively new phenomenon.
 




kevtar

First Post
there's room for paladins, melee clerics, and spellsy clerics

I'm going to veer off into Paladin territory for a bit before coming back to clerics.

I think it would be unfortunate for D&D players to conflate the Paladin with a Cleric by classifying each as a “holy warrior” or "warriors of faith." If we look at all the iterations of the paladin from 1st edition to 4th, we can see that paladins, while good were never “holy” and not necessarily "faithful." Dedicated or committed, yes - but not necessarily demonstrating faith in the belief of a god or entity that would grant them divine power. They used holy weapons and such, and even had access to spells at one point, but that doesn’t necessarily make the paladin equivalent to a cleric.

On p.18 of the original 1st edition PHB, it says, “paladins are fighters who are lawful good… “ and the beginning of the class description for paladins reads like this:

A paladin character is a fighter sub-class, but unlike normal fighters, all paladins must begin as lawful good in alignment (q.v.) …​

In 2nd edition, the description of the paladin changed slightly, but it still emphasized the fact that a paladin isn’t necessarily “holy” or that he is part of the clergy. On page 57 a paladin is simply a heroic and noble warrior:

The paladin is a noble and heroic warrior, the symbol of all that is right and true in the world. As such, he has high ideals that he must maintain at all times.​

On page 51, the 2nd edition PHB continues to emphasize the martial aspect of the paladin, but it doesn’t confuse piety with holiness or conflate a virtuous dedication to an ideal with serving in a priesthood or exercising divine power due to one’s affiliation with a church, universal concept, or deity (i.e. as does a cleric). However, it does start to broaden the concept of the paladin by incorporating the concept of the paladin being an exemplar:

The paladin is a warrior bold and pure, the exemplar of everything good and true. Like the fighter, the paladin is a man of combat. … He strives to be a living example of these virtues so that others might learn from him as well as gain by his actions.​

In 3.5, the description changed again, allowing a broader interpretation of what it meant to be a paladin. The focus on the paladin being a fighter was lost and a greater emphasis was placed on the paladin’s personal virtues. This is where 3rd edition took a cue from 2nd edition and enlarged that language to a state where I felt that shifted the concept of a paladin from a simply lawful good fighter concept to something that drew closer to a cleric.

The compassion to pursue good, the will to uphold law, and the power to defeat evil—these are the three weapons of the paladin. Few have the purity and devotion that it takes to walk the paladin’s path…​

4e painted the paladin with even broader strokes, even though it did emphasize the distinction of the paladin as a warrior. the PHB describes changes in the paladin allowing variations in alignment and the ability to be dedicated to a cause or concept rather than simply to a deity. However, on p.89, the PHB continues to emphasize the core of the paladin class:

Paladins are indomitable warriors who’ve pledged their prowess to something greater than themselves.​

My personal preference is for the 1st edition definition simply because of its simplicity. A paladin is a lawful good fighter who is nobly dedicated to a particular cause. I don’t really have a problem with a paladin not being restricted by alignment, although it makes sense to me that a character that is driven by a particular ideal might be disposed to a lawful alignment. That is, of course, unless the paladin is committed to chaos, lol – but then the question arises, is that paladin a paladin?

The other definitions in latter editions incorporated language that paralleled too closely the concept of the cleric. I’m hoping that in 5e, the paladin is placed squarely in the martial ranks and is identified by her/his commitment to good rather than their ability to act as a “symbol for all that is good and righteous.” Paladins committed to a general cause doesn't really "do it for me," but if there's an option for that, I'm cool.

Let clerics either wade into melee and, imbued with the divine power of their god, subject their enemies to the full righteous indignation of their god – or draw upon the divine powers of their deity through faithful observance of the dictates of their religion in the service of their fellow characters. That is where I believe the distinction between clerics and paladins lies: Clerics serve people (either allies, followers, or others – even when adventuring) through their faithful adherence to the dictates of their deity. Paladins serve an ideal, and while they, by extension, may serve others as a result, the primary focus of their actions is still placed upon their dedication to that ideal, whether it is simply a lawful good disposition (as in 1st edition) or a concept comprised of a number of virtuous ideals as in 2nd – 4th edition.

So, for 5e, or D&DNext, or whatever… I support a base cleric that you can customize as wanted. If you want a melee cleric with spellcasting ability (e.g. 1st – 3rd edition), then make these choices. You want a cleric that is more of a caster (e.g. 4e’s “invoker”), then make these choices. Want a little of both, well then make THESE choices!
 
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cougent

First Post
I actually don't really care about the naming conventions per se (whether they use cleric or priest, wizard or mage, rogue or thief, fighter or... whatever)... but I DO think it's important to have "generic" class builds, as well the optional extended builds with things like domains, schools, weapon specializations, and expert fields.

At the very basic foundation of the system, for those people who didn't want to deal with all the optional "character building" stuff from 3E and 4E and instead just wanted to have a "Fighter", or "Cleric", or "Wizard", or "Thief" a la Basic D&D... it should be possible to create within the game these basic "iconic" builds of these four classes. Nothing fancy, nothing much different than what the four classes would have gotten at each level in BD&D. "Generic" fighters, clerics, wizards, and thieves. Pick one and go!

Conversely... I definitely believe there should also then be expandable systems in place to build out those four classes so that they CAN all be different from each other. So that a "cleric of the god of the sun" has different abilities and spells than a "cleric of the god of storms".

And whether or not you want to keep calling these expanded classes "clerics", or start calling them "priests" just to differentiate them from the basic version... doesn't really matter in the long run.

Personally... I would call them the different names. The Fighter is a generalist combatant who is good with weapons... the Warrior focuses on one or two special weapons, doing all manner of interesting maneuvers and exploits with them. The Cleric is a divine agent of the gods, spreading faith to the flocks while wearing armor and wielding a mace. The Priests each follow the tenets of a specific deity, gaining abilities that go along the domains and portfolios of the deity they worship. The Thief is a general adventurer and dungeoneer, skilled in your basic adventuring skills of locks, traps, and climbing walls. The Rogue is a specialist in any manner of adventure-- master cat burglar, diplomat, sword-swinging swashbuckler, assassin, pirate, cutpurse. And the Wizard is your generalist spellcaster, whereas the Mages all have a particular school of magic they specialize in-- the Illusionist mage, the Evoker mage, the Conjurer mage etc.

At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter if the basic, easy-to-learn classes have the same or different names as the "built" ones... it just comes down to what's easiest for new and experienced players to understand.

I like this idea, and possibly oversimplifying it further:

What if level 1 started with JUST these basic character types and part of the process of advancing was specializing your character into the myriad of build classes? As the cleric advances, he is then rewarded by his faith with certain abilities and such. The cleric of Thor does get to wear better armour starting at level 2 (or other) while another cleric of another god gains faster undead turning, or different / more divine spells of a certain type at each level. All while still essentially grounded in the basic cleric framework.

This could make it possible for potential new players to "just play a cleric" for several levels while allowing the experienced player to start customizing just after creation, but both start at the same point.
 

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