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Idea: Equipment based skills and skill checks

MarkB

Legend
So, what happens when somebody finds a set of lock-picks, perhaps on the corpse of a hapless adventurer? Do they immediately become proficient with them upon picking them up?

If I attempt to pick a lock and fail, can I give my set of lock-picks to another character as a gift, thus granting them skill training as a consequence of ownership, and let them have a go?

EDIT: And does the knowledge of picking locks fade from my mind at the same moment?

If a barbarian wanders into an abandoned wizard tower and claims it as his own, does he immediately become skilled in the use of the research library, summoning circle, golem-creation forge and astronomical observatory he finds within?
 

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ferratus

Adventurer
In a game in which the bag of holding, tenser's floating disk, and other bulk/weight nullifying spells and items did not exist, I'd be inclined to agree. But as it stands, these are pretty classic parts of D&D. Besides, a caravan filled with tool kits solves the issue mostly at low levels anyway, and I see no reason why it would be immersion breaking other than the fact that no individual or group should be so multi-talented without extensive training.

That's not what you said. You said carting all this stuff around was immersion breaking, but whatever. I don't see why carrying around a bunch of stuff in a bag of holding is immersion breaking either.

Now to your other point of why any group should be so multi-talented, well that ship has sailed. Not only is everyone doing ability checks for everything in D&D Next, making it possible for a D&D character to know lockpicking, training animals, gathering food, forging documents, or identifying heraldry and as many skills as you can think of. You could do this in OD&D, 1e, and 2e if you didn't use proficiencies and it didn't cause any problems, except when DM's tried to tell their players what they could and couldn't do.

It is like the big bruhaha about blacksmithing not being in the skill list for 4e. Some people cried that they couldn't be blacksmiths anymore. When informed that skills like that could just be taken without skill slots because it didn't matter because blacksmithing isn't that useful, they screamed that now everyone was going to be a blacksmith. Well, that never happened. A couple dwarves picked up some blacksmithing, but most people just didn't give a crap about blacksmithing if it didn't match their character concept.

Likewise, if people don't have a high dexterity, they won't care about blacksmithing. If they have a low wisdom, they won't really try to bother with being an animal trainer. If they have low con, they are going to hail a rickshaw instead of running across town. That's what's going to happen.

Also, people generally split up all possible skills in the party in 3e or 4e to cover their bases. Therefore even if you do have a skill system, people are still going to haul around the equipment they need to use those skills in a bag of holding.

I strongly disagree. In a world where failing to represent yourself well in front of the king or when on trial can land you in jail or on the gallows, skills can keep you alive just as well as combat can. You can't always fight your way out of anything, just as you cannot usually fight your way past a deadly trap. This is partially a game design issue, but it is also a GM issue that will vary by group and campaign.

If you are in the gallows, you don't have any equipment that can help you. So that is that example gone. But even if you were in the gallows, and your companions want to save your low Charisma ass by forging some papers to corroborate your story? That's what equipment should be for, to make your skill checks easier.

Plenty of players sneak in low-level D&D games, at least in my experience. It bothers me that fighters have to choose between being good fighters and good at skills, so that's why I homebrew. In my homebrew I have solutions for group sneak and other assorted issues. In my current game, there's a warrior in the group that's a semi-proficient engineer and is reasonably good at picking locks and disarming traps. He's been rather useful to the party so far.

So what's your solution? I mean, I'm just talking about moving the skill bonus from the background over to the equipment chapter. I'm not even changing the numbers at all from the default design. The alternative will probably be having a skill bonus to both equipment and background. I'm just arguing against

a) the idea of reintroducing a skill system and
b) instead of having a +3 bonus to a skill generally that makes one character more skilled than the rest, instead of putting it on equipment everyone can use in a specific situation.

If magical item crafting were permitted and being skilled at something requires no skill beyond owning the tools, then a wizard or equivalent character could craft magical items without needing to sacrifice any other part of their character. A person with an alchemist kit somehow knows what kind of poison was on that dart and also the anti-toxin. Just off the top of my head.

Yeah, that's how magic item crafting worked in most editions but 3e. 3e sacrificed a feat to do it, but other editions sacrificed constitution points and/or a massive pile of gold. In BASIC you spent a lot of gold and might lose it all if your enchantments fizzled. But 3e was the only system that required something like a feat to cast magic items generally.

As for alchemy, well you can sink a large amount of gold to build an alchemical laboratory, and each potion requires expensive ingredients. Sure you get a slight discount on the alchemical items you produce in your downtime, but probably not enough to recoup the cost of building the lab for quite some time. Sure, you could sell some alchemical potions, but the profits margins probably aren't much better than any other business. You could hire somebody to run the lab for you that could churn out potions every day and that might get messy... but you can do that in a skill system anyway.

What else you got?

I don't hand-wave skills away entirely, I allow anyone to try anything. Attempting to accomplish a complex task without prior training or experience does not usually end well, However. If someone's trying to pick a lock and it's their first time then they're going to do rather poorly. That's why I prefer systems with skill ranks and such. They can justify to me that they grew up on the streets and learned to jimmy locks, but since we began play it looks like they hadn't invested any points and thus logically we assume they haven't practiced since they were young.

*shrugs* Well we don't have skill ranks in the basic game, we have ability checks. Even if a skill system is introduced, I imagine it will remain optional because a lot of us want it to die in a fire.

Skill systems exist for one thing only, to say no to people wanting to immerse and interact with the world through artificial barriers. There is simply no amount of skill points you can assign to make characters make sense.

I can do basic welding, I can do basic service and repairs on cars and heavy machinery. (Blacksmithing) I can make furniture, I can cut rafters and build and shingle a roof, and I have raised a few small wooden buildings. I have raised and cared for chickens, sheep pigs and horses. I can ride a horse and train a dog, I have planted crops and harvested them. I have a double honours degree in philosophy and history. I am well versed in my religion and passibly well versed in other major religions. I can read Latin and Greek. I can assemble computers. I can program computers in three languages. I know how to cook very well. I can shoot a rifle, butcher an animal, and know basic survival techniques and (most importantly) how to summon help. I can can stalk and kill a deer. I have picked a lock or two when I have needed to. I can sew and knit. I can keep listing other skills, but the point is, I sure as heck can use almost every mundane tool that is in the PHB, and I have far more skills (and far more varied skills) than 3e will allow me.

I'm not anybody especially talented. I'm just a farm boy who got a liberal arts degree. I'm not particularly bright or out of the ordinary. If you starting jotting down things on a piece of paper with all of your varied skills there is no doubt you could probably match it. If you look at the equipment list in the PHB, subtracting the weapons and armour, you probably could use most of it too.

If the 3e skill system can't model the abilities of ordinary nerds like us because you could never fit all the skills you have on a single character sheet, what is it good for? Where is the realism and immersion it is supposed to be giving?

Well first off I'm not fighting with you. I'm arguing against your proposed line of reasoning. Your line of reasoning is my line of reasoning but reversed. Instead of saying "I'm a locksmith therefore I have some picks", you say "I have some picks therefore I am a locksmith". I object to it because it's backwards and attempting to codify it into rules would cause all kinds of believability issues for me.

All that is required is that you don't insist on saying it backwards. I practiced with these lockpicks that I bought, so I am going to pick the lock. If your players are interested in immersion then they will give you plausible explanations of why they can do the skills that they do. If you players aren't interested in immersion enough that they are willing to break immersion for no real mechanical benefit but being obnoxious... then why worry immersion at all?
 

ferratus

Adventurer
So, what happens when somebody finds a set of lock-picks, perhaps on the corpse of a hapless adventurer? Do they immediately become proficient with them upon picking them up?

If they explain why they are yeah. If they give a reason of how they gained the knowledge of picking locks, then why not?

You do realise that if you get a pair of lockpicks, you can can become proficient in picking locks in about a week right? I mean, you won't be cracking any safes, but you'll be picking almost any common door lock that you like and certainly picking locks more complicated than anything the middle ages had.

If I attempt to pick a lock and fail, can I give my set of lock-picks to another character as a gift, thus granting them skill training as a consequence of ownership, and let them have a go?

If he knows how, or is willing to just jiggle it around a little bit. Still has to make a hard dex check though. It isn't like you can't keep trying 20 times anyway. What's the difference if 5 people try it 20 times, or the guy with the highest dex tries it 20 times? Either you going to get it open or the lock is too difficult.

But really, if you are gaming the system to try and get a tiny advantage, then that's the game you want to play. You'll break immersion no matter what the rules are.

EDIT: And does the knowledge of picking locks fade from my mind at the same moment?

Yep, just like knowing how to paint a minature fades when you put down a brush. I think though you are playing the wrong game. You are under the impression that the D&D rules are working reality engine, and that it doesn't require a suspension of disbelief to make rules work.

I mean that's like saying "hey, since I know how to use every weapon in 3e, does that mean my knowledge of the sword fades whenever I pick up an axe?"

If a barbarian wanders into an abandoned wizard tower and claims it as his own, does he immediately become skilled in the use of the research library, summoning circle, golem-creation forge and astronomical observatory he finds within?

If you want to make a DC 25 Intelligence check with your barbarian to use the golem creation forge, you go ahead. You still need to use the spells to enchant that golem though.

If you can read the arcane tongues, you can use the research library. I mean, why wouldn't you? If you want to spend many months learning how to chart the stars, referencing that research library, go ahead.

Like Gygax (who never needed a skill system) I would love if you attempted to use the summoning circle, because it is a magical item, and I would love for you to try and make the intelligence check to control the demon you inadvertantly summoned. If that summoning circle is a mundane item, then I'm afraid it still requires the spell to activate.

So anyone else want to give me an outlandish examples why a system that worked fine for 3 editions wouldn't work now?
 
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FinalSonicX

First Post
That's not what you said. You said carting all this stuff around was immersion breaking, but whatever. I don't see why carrying around a bunch of stuff in a bag of holding is immersion breaking either.

It's absurd for one character to carry around all the equipment and toolkits for every job ever in a bag of holding or in whatever and then whip it out at the appropriate moment and say "of course I'm trained in extreme pogosticking! I have an extreme pogostick, don't I?". That's the silly part.

If you are in the gallows, you don't have any equipment that can help you. So that is that example gone. But even if you were in the gallows, and your companions want to save your low Charisma ass by forging some papers to corroborate your story? That's what equipment should be for, to make your skill checks easier.

your equipment is irrelevant in such a scenario. I said that being especially good at some aspect of play that arises should probably require some kind of resource for your character. You said that it's a sucker's choice because combat is what keeps you alive and thus if you didn't choose combat benefits you were making a mistake. I provided a counterpoint - a character with excellent speaking skills might save their life by talking their way through a situation like a trial, and a character with trap training can save their life from the deadly trap.

So what's your solution? I mean, I'm just talking about moving the skill bonus from the background over to the equipment chapter. I'm not even changing the numbers at all from the default design. The alternative will probably be having a skill bonus to both equipment and background. I'm just arguing against

a) the idea of reintroducing a skill system and
b) instead of having a +3 bonus to a skill generally that makes one character more skilled than the rest, instead of putting it on equipment everyone can use in a specific situation.

explaining all aspects of my homebrew that provide a solution to these issues would be time-consuming and without context probably would not make sense, so suffice it to say that the skill system is more relaxed, open, and streamlined. Plenty of points, try anything you want to, extra feats to accomplish special things with your skills, etc. A character's skill lies within themselves, not with their equipment. To shift that bonus away from the player is to increase reliance on equipment and to effectively allow people to "buy" skill ranks.

As for alchemy, well you can sink a large amount of gold to build an alchemical laboratory, and each potion requires expensive ingredients.

Is the assumption that alchemist kits do not exist anymore? You don't need a full lab to have the necessary tools and justify "training when we weren't looking so I'm just as good as the guy who explicitly made a big deal about his training".

Skill systems exist for one thing only, to say no to people wanting to immerse and interact with the world through artificial barriers. There is simply no amount of skill points you can assign to make characters make sense.

Skills systems exist to establish degrees of proficiency/mastery in a variety of subjects that relate to commonly encountered scenarios while adventuring. To suggest that it's artificial is silly - this is an abstracted game we're talking about, of course it's artificial, just like almost any game mechanic. A skill system is not there to say "no", it's there to provide a resolution system for scenarios. I don't know why you don't think skill points can be allocated in a way that makes sense, as that runs counter to my experiences.

I can do basic welding, I can do basic service and repairs on cars and heavy machinery. (Blacksmithing) I can make furniture, I can cut rafters and build and shingle a roof, and I have raised a few small wooden buildings. I have raised and cared for chickens, sheep pigs and horses. I can ride a horse and train a dog, I have planted crops and harvested them. I have a double honours degree in philosophy and history. I am well versed in my religion and passibly well versed in other major religions. I can read Latin and Greek. I can assemble computers. I can program computers in three languages. I know how to cook very well. I can shoot a rifle, butcher an animal, and know basic survival techniques and (most importantly) how to summon help. I can can stalk and kill a deer. I have picked a lock or two when I have needed to. I can sew and knit. I can keep listing other skills, but the point is, I sure as heck can use almost every mundane tool that is in the PHB, and I have far more skills (and far more varied skills) than 3e will allow me.

This is why I don't ask for skill checks unless they're trying to accomplish something more difficult than cooking a meal. I also allow people to try anything (trained or otherwise), and give plenty of skill points and other options to increase proficiency. A skill system is not generally there to describe every single life skill you've ever picked up, but rather it's there to describe which common actions you're good at, and you can scribble in the few uncommon skills you're exceptional at. Otherwise, assume it's a flat ability check. That should work fine.

If the 3e skill system can't model the abilities of ordinary nerds like us because you could never fit all the skills you have on a single character sheet, what is it good for? Where is the realism and immersion it is supposed to be giving?

it's there to establish degrees of proficiency. It's so that someone can become a grandmaster of locks while another diversifies and dabbles in a number of disparate skills. The resolution system, assuming the math is sound, should then permit both characters to see how their differences in training and skill work out in various scenarios.

In a system without a formal skill subsystem, I'd much rather have a player tell me "I'm a locksmith" than them say "I have some picks, so I'm a locksmith". It's just backwards and unnecessary.
 
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ferratus

Adventurer
It's absurd for one character to carry around all the equipment and toolkits for every job ever in a bag of holding or in whatever and then whip it out at the appropriate moment and say "of course I'm trained in extreme pogosticking! I have an extreme pogostick, don't I?". That's the silly part.

It must be difficult to run a game where your fighter character, since he is the master of all weapons (save the asian and silly ones) popping out a new weapon every combat and declaring he is the master of all weapons. Obviously we need to return to 2e, where he was limited to a few weapon proficiencies. I mean, he knows far more styles of fighting than anyone would ever know in real life.

You must have also read that it is a common problem for the playtests of 5e that people are buying up every item they can, and cackling about how they know all the skills because it is all done with ability checks.

Also, when you play 3rd edition, whenever someone makes a planar lore check, it means that he knows the entire infinite universe, with infinite planes of existence. Within each of those infinite planes he knows something the creatures, the geography, the politics, and all the other mundane things of every single one. He isn't a learned sage, he is an infinite store of knowledge which no man could ever learn in 100 lifetimes.

Oh wait, none of those things are true, because people can handle abstraction. The scenerio you are describing is just as ludicrous as those three scenerios are.

your equipment is irrelevant in such a scenario. I said that being especially good at some aspect of play that arises should probably require some kind of resource for your character.

Then you make a charisma check without equipment. In fact, that brings up an interesting point. If you have a piece of wire or a slender dagger, and you have an ability score check system according to you, I am already a master of picking locks. I don't even need the lockpicks. That means everyone who owns a dagger in D&D next is a master locksmith. We gotta tell WotC about this right away. They're making a huge mistake!

You said that it's a sucker's choice because combat is what keeps you alive and thus if you didn't choose combat benefits you were making a mistake.

A situation where a skill might be needed to save your life comes along once and a blue moon. Monsters try to murder you every session, multiple times. Yes, it is a sucker's game spending combat feats for skill bonuses.

A character's skill lies within themselves, not with their equipment. To shift that bonus away from the player is to increase reliance on equipment and to effectively allow people to "buy" skill ranks.

So is buying a horse. You are buying skill ranks in run by using a horse. In fact, you are buying so many skills ranks, that you can run farther and faster than the fittest man. Is that a problem? A guy with a grappling hook and rope will be able to climb a wall much easier than a guy who is crawling up unaided. That's buying skill ranks too, is that a problem?

No, because of course things are easier if you buy the right tools. If you aren't expressing it as a skill bonus, how are you expressing it?

Putting it on the background on the other hand, on the player, means that you are good at something even if it doesn't make sense. Why is a merchant who gets his diplomacy check bonus for selling wares, better at negotiating with orc chieftains, winged elves, and monks who have taken vows of poverty?

Is the assumption that alchemist kits do not exist anymore? You don't need a full lab to have the necessary tools and justify "training when we weren't looking so I'm just as good as the guy who explicitly made a big deal about his training".

Oh yeah, alchemy kits. God I hate them. You cannot make glowsticks, sonic grenades and other alchemical items with a case you carry on your backpack. That's sillier than anything we're talking about.

Okay, so you don't have to buy an expensive lab with *spit* alchemy kits. But you are still only getting a slight discount on alchemical items. Not a huge difference unless alchemical items are better than your attacks or other abilities. If they are, then they shouldn't be available for mere skill points anyway. You don't get access to the complete spell list of a wizard with Knowledge: arcana, so why would you get something equal to a wizard's spell list with an alchemy skill?

Skills systems exist to establish degrees of proficiency/mastery in a variety of subjects that relate to commonly encountered scenarios while adventuring. To suggest that it's artificial is silly - this is an abstracted game we're talking about, of course it's artificial, just like almost any game mechanic. A skill system is not there to say "no", it's there to provide a resolution system for scenarios.

The degrees of proficiency can be established just fine with ability scores, you don't need a skill system for that. Having both is just redundant. Especially, since if you want to be effective, you pretty much have to max out the skills the best you can all the time. That's why 4e did away with skill points, because it was a waste of time to have less than the full amount.

Skyrim went the other way and ditched stats and kept skills. It however, just lets you do what you want to do and does the book keeping for you, adding skill ranks as you go along. I would like 3e's skill system a lot better if I got a skill rank every time I used a skill. At least I wouldn't be hemmed in at an arbitrarily low level of general competence.

I don't know why you don't think skill points can be allocated in a way that makes sense, as that runs counter to my experiences.

I told you, because there is never enough skill points to represent an adventurer doing things that an adventurer should do.

This is why I don't ask for skill checks unless they're trying to accomplish something more difficult than cooking a meal. I also allow people to try anything (trained or otherwise), and give plenty of skill points and other options to increase proficiency.

If you want people to do a wide variety of things, why not just let them do a wide variety of things? Why waste everybody's time with all this piddly book-keeping? We both end up in the same place, PC's that can do some things better than others. I just save paper and time.

A skill system is not generally there to describe every single life skill you've ever picked up, but rather it's there to describe which common actions you're good at, and you can scribble in the few uncommon skills you're exceptional at. Otherwise, assume it's a flat ability check. That should work fine.

But you already know what tasks you are good and exceptional at when you make a flat ability check. You are exceptional at tasks related to your exceptional scores, mediocre at those related to your mediocre scores, and poor at those related to your poor scores.

Why bother with a skill system except to say that you are worse at even more stuff that because you didn't invest the skill ranks?

In a system without a formal skill subsystem, I'd much rather have a player tell me "I'm a locksmith" than them say "I have some picks, so I'm a locksmith". It's just backwards and unnecessary.

Don't worry, a player wouldn't tell you that. He might say "I'm picking some locks on my equipment list so I can be a locksmith", but that is exactly like a 3e fighter saying "I'm choosing to own a sword so I can be a swordsman." He could have just as easily said "I'm going to be own a spear so I can be a spearman".

My system is exactly the same as that, only applying to more than fighter weapons.
 
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slobster

Hero
For me, it boils down to verisimilitude. A person becomes skilled at a task by a combination of practice and natural talent. D&D has modeled this by adding your ability score modifier (natural talent) to a number representing your character's practice and training (skill points, skill training etc.).

Tools and special circumstances can modify this number as well. They have their place. But give a set of tools to a thief and to me, and he's gonna be better at picking locks. Even a thief who is in general less coordinated than I will be better, because he is more practiced. Take away a cross-country runner's running shoes and give me the best equipment in the world, and he's still going to outrun me.

There are a million reasons why that is true in the real world, but the skill point system does a reasonable job of approximating it all. I think it works pretty well as-is (though I would like to decouple skill bonuses from particular ability scores, as they promised).

Your proposal would seem to work all right in game balance terms. I think you've made some pretty interesting arguments to that effect, and in some RPG I think equipment based skills might work. But it's a pretty big mental disconnect for me that taking away a Roman historian's text book means that he can't recall any better than his friend the chemist who the first consul of Rome was.

Equipment granting bonuses to checks makes sense to me. Replacing any sort of permanent, learned skill aptitude with purely equipment based bonuses doesn't.
 

MarkB

Legend
If they explain why they are yeah. If they give a reason of how they gained the knowledge of picking locks, then why not?

You do realise that if you get a pair of lockpicks, you can can become proficient in picking locks in about a week right? I mean, you won't be cracking any safes, but you'll be picking almost any common door lock that you like and certainly picking locks more complicated than anything the middle ages had.

But in the system you're proposing I don't need weeks, or any reason. I have the skill because I possess the lockpicks. That's the whole basis of the system as you've described it.

Yep, just like knowing how to paint a minature fades when you put down a brush.

It does whatnow? I'm not much of a minis painter myself, but I've seen experienced painters give great advice on these boards, and I'm fairly sure they didn't need to type it out with a brush in hand to access that knowledge.

I think though you are playing the wrong game. You are under the impression that the D&D rules are working reality engine, and that it doesn't require a suspension of disbelief to make rules work.

I mean that's like saying "hey, since I know how to use every weapon in 3e, does that mean my knowledge of the sword fades whenever I pick up an axe?"

But I'm not just putting down the lockpicks in this example - I'm giving them away. Since I no longer possess the lockpicks, does my skill at picking locks vanish?

If you want to make a DC 25 Intelligence check with your barbarian to use the golem creation forge, you go ahead. You still need to use the spells to enchant that golem though.

If you can read the arcane tongues, you can use the research library. I mean, why wouldn't you? If you want to spend many months learning how to chart the stars, referencing that research library, go ahead.

The system you proposed mentioned nothing of these "many months" you speak of. My barbarian owns an observatory, therefore by your system he is an astronomer.
 

Gryph

First Post
Which is what this is trying to model.



Well, you could put in a time requirement, but it just really isn't worth it. I would just assume the same thing as in 3e when you multiclass wizard. You had actually been studying magic for months before this (when the DM wasn't looking) and you have finally cast your first spell.

That mechanic makes just as much or just as little sense as just allowing people to use the equipment they buy.

I totally agree with you on the multi-classing mechanic:). But then the multi-classing rules in 3.x are a big reason why I stopped playing 3.5 after a couple of months.
 

I like this idea, however it needs to be coupled with some changes to make it work;

- enforced encumbrance rules
- silver piece economy baseline
- equipment based skills have a higher dc
- equipment grant +3 to a skill that has an associated item.


Fine clothing grants bonuses to social skills., etc..


So a skill check is comprised of d20 + Stat mod + skill mod + equipment bonus + gms friend + magic bonus

Stat is from -3 to +5
Skill is from 3 to 7
Equipment is either 0 or 3
Gms friend is -2 or +2
Magic bonus is from 1 to 3

So in a perfect scenario where the Pc has all the right stuff going for him, that's a +20 to the check.


Alternatively, equipment could set a floor ala jack of all trades where the d20 minimum is 5, 10, or 15



Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2
 

Sadrik

First Post
I like this idea, however it needs to be coupled with some changes to make it work;

- enforced encumbrance rules
- silver piece economy baseline
- equipment based skills have a higher dc
- equipment grant +3 to a skill that has an associated item.


Fine clothing grants bonuses to social skills., etc..


So a skill check is comprised of d20 + Stat mod + skill mod + equipment bonus + gms friend + magic bonus

Stat is from -3 to +5
Skill is from 3 to 7
Equipment is either 0 or 3
Gms friend is -2 or +2
Magic bonus is from 1 to 3

So in a perfect scenario where the Pc has all the right stuff going for him, that's a +20 to the check.


Alternatively, equipment could set a floor ala jack of all trades where the d20 minimum is 5, 10, or 15



Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2
Conceptually I really like having tools be a big factor in the skill system. How to accomplish that is a big debate and really goes after the core math of the game so any changes like this would have to be core and not a module. Again this is a really important function. Currently I think the game is set up where if you do not have lock picks you could not even attempt the check. I am not a fan of absolutes in games and feel like there should be some play between the rogue improvising some tools albeit without as big a bonus or even a penalty. The rogue should at least be able to try improvising. Rather than the dm having to say no you have no thieves tools.

I have an RPGs that I developed for my 5 year old that gives the characters tools/gear/equipment the assumption is that you get it and you know how to use it. For instance if you have a med kit you know how to apply it properly to heal. Very simple and gets to the heart of the skill system in that game. So it has a place I think to simply get rid of the skills and go completely tool based. Basically that was a mission based game and the characters could get different load outs and then go in and do some zombie slaying or whatever. It was fun and something like this could fullfill that type of role. I just think that there has to be some better development of the idea. Conceptually really like the idea but have not seen one yet where I think that has to be in the game.

One last point is I do not like the current skill system in the play test 2. Shaping your Skill for your stat, hmm not sure I like that so you can cov up your bad stats with skills and suffer no effects from having a low stat. Perfect example is the 8 int cleric with all the lore skills...

So again I'll be keeping an eye on this thread to see if there are some good ideas that come about...
 

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