Idea on keeping Vancian casters from novaing

[ZombieRoboNinja]

An old argument that got brought up in the most recent Rule-of-Three article is how to balance traditional Vancian-style casters (with daily spells) against classes with mostly at-will or encounter powers. The problem is that those classes tend to "go nova" and blow all their spells every encounter, and then either sit on their butts or demand a rest. (Thus the 15-minute adventuring day.)

Here's a quick and obvious fix: let wizards get daily spells a la 3e, but they can only cast X spells without taking a short rest to recover. (I.e., only x spells per encounter.)

X would need to be playtested, but maybe Con mod + 1/3 level (minimum 2)?

That way the wizard can still ration out his spells however he wants (blowing all his high-level spells early) but still has SOME daily resources later on.

Similar adjustments could be made for other non-Vancian classes, obviously: psions can only spend Y magic points without a short rest, for example.

Offhand, this seems like an option that would preserve the "feel" of Vancian casters while solving a balance problem. It's very easy to justify plotwise, too: spellcasting is tiring, and even if you have a bunch of spells memorized, you can't just rattle off 40 in a row without a break. I honestly can't think of many wizard/cleric battles, even in D&D novels, that wouldn't fit in this new mechanic: even if Elminster can spellcast nonstop for 100 pages, well, he's like level 40.

What do people think?

 

[Yora]

It only forces unneccessary complications on groups that are doing just fine to support a system that was a mistake when it was introduced over 30 years ago.

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

It only forces unneccessary complications on groups that are doing just fine to support a system that was a mistake when it was introduced over 30 years ago.

Could you be more specific? How are groups doing just fine if the system is a mistake? (And even if they are, shouldn't mistakes be fixed?)

 

[BASHMAN]

How is this different from just changing all "Dailies" to "Encounter" powers? Are you presuming multiple combats between short rests?

Most players will mutiny if a GM pulls that more than once in a while. A short rest is like 5 minutes. If characters don't get a 5 minute breather between combats, it means they are being like... swarmed by an entire hoarde of something attacking in continuous waves, sacrificing their lives by the score soley for the purpose of depriving the PCs of rest. Players don't like that.

I like this idea: each spell has an At-Will, Encounter, and Daily version (or at least some spells do).

The Daily version can be used once (well you can choose to prep 2 Daily Sleeps, but you get what I mean). Encounter can be used each encounter, and at will is at will.

Maybe some spells only have 2 version, but oh well.

So Magic Missile: At Will: 1 missile does damage = to INT mod.
Encounter: 1 Missile per 4 Levels.
Daily: 1 Missile per 4 Levels, each does 1d6+INT Mod.

Sleep:
At Will: Targets are drowsy, gets Disadvantage and half-movement until attacked or shaken awake.
Daily: Keep it the way it is now.

If you want to add some more "flavor" to this, you could also make the different options "unlockable" at certain levels. So a Wizard would not get the Daily Magic Missile at level 1, but might gain that at level 5.

 

[SKyOdin]

This idea might work if people are willing to put up with more convoluted mechanics added onto the currently already messy Vancian casting system. I think that if you want to bring Vancian casting under more control, you need to rebuild some of its basic assumptions.

A simpler way to do what you are trying to do would be to only allow a Wizard to prepare three or four spells at once, but allow them to re-prepare or swap out those spells with a mere short rest. Wizards would still be able to re-adjust their spells based on their needs, but this system would cut down on the large encounter-to-encounter variances brought about by per-day mechanics.

 

[Harlock]

Vancian caster novas and demands a rest? Hello wandering monster table. Eventually a connection will be made or they'll simply learn to save some spells for later.

 

[Splurch]

Vancian caster novas and demands a rest? Hello wandering monster table. Eventually a connection will be made or they'll simply learn to save some spells for later.

This!

If you mix up your adventuring day so some have multiple encounters and some don't so the players don't know what to expect it usually solves the going nova problem. I also do this kind of thing when players don't fear death in games and think the DM won't kill us so once in awhile I let one die early on to set the tone. (especially in a horror game)

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

Vancian caster novas and demands a rest? Hello wandering monster table. Eventually a connection will be made or they'll simply learn to save some spells for later.

The power level of a daily caster is directly proportional to how many combats the party is expected to face between rests, and that number changes depending on the group and the DM. So sure, you can toss random encounters at the group and they'll learn to stretch out their spells over 3-4 encounters. But Bob down the street is letting his casters blow their loads and rest every encounter. And Gary in Ohio won't let his players rest until they've gotten through 6-8 encounters.

So the PROBLEM is that in each of these groups, the wizard's power level is vastly different. Bob's wizard is overpowered, your wizard is probably appropriate to the character level, and Gary's is underpowered.

So either you have to tell Bob and Gary that they're doing it wrong (badwrongfun), or you have to adjust the game mechanics to encourage (or force) casters to spread out their spells an appropriate amount.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Vancian caster novas and demands a rest? Hello wandering monster table. Eventually a connection will be made or they'll simply learn to save some spells for later.

So the Vancian caster novas a little bit less, holding back enough to fight off a wandering monster encounter, and then rests.

Then you add more wandering monsters, so the Vancian caster decides to hold back enough to handle two wandering monster encounters, and rests a little earlier.

Etc.

Problem not solved.

 

[Harlock]

So the Vancian caster novas a little bit less, holding back enough to fight off a wandering monster encounter, and then rests.

Then you add more wandering monsters, so the Vancian caster decides to hold back enough to handle two wandering monster encounters, and rests a little earlier.

Etc.

Problem not solved.

Er, actually, yeah, it is. If the problem was a Vancian caster blowing all their spells in one encounter (general implied definition of going nova) and you've shown and given them a reason not to do so then by the definition of the words "problem solved" yes, the problem was indeed solved.