D&D 4E If 4e went in this direction...

[ThirdWizard]

[MENTION=12037]ThirdWizard[/MENTION] I don't see any reason why, if used themes as a multiclass option, that has to be the only option available. If you had half-elf as a theme, you could still multi-class with feats, just like hybrid didn't get rid of the feat options.

Sorry I was thinking of replacing multiclassing. Theme-based multiclass rules would, at least for me, making feat multiclassing especially painful (not that it already isn't).

 

[Matt James]

Some people have been asking about how a sub-system like this would fix the math. I intend to do an sample write-up next week, but the idea is to integrate the necessary increases into the themes. This can, of course, be completely ignored as the fixes already exist in the form of specific feats. That being said, I added the 'math' part as a rider to the theme and not just a core idea of the design. More to follow... In the meantime I need to finish up the 4e Siege Engine article for Kobold Quarterly while juggling some work.

 

[dangerous jack]

Just wanted to add my voice to the chorus of those who really liked the ideas in your article, Matt. I think themes could really streamline many of the different systems that you mention and even other things such as the weapon mastery feats. Well done.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I would like to have it this way:

Race
Theme
Base class
Build

You can substitute Theme or build with a second class.

So
Race
Theme
Class
Class

would be a dark sun hybrid character without hybrid talent

Race
Class
Class
Build

Would be a multiclass character that has no Theme and can take multiclass powers instead of theme powers and gains low basic features of his second class.

 

[ScorpiusRisk]

My article and slight response on themes went up today, Themes taking on New Roles | STUFFER SHACK. Check out the end where I talk about 4e modern, one of the main reasons I've been thinking about expanding on themes.

 

[Matt James]

Cool article and exactly the line of thinking I had when I put up my own.

Jonathan Jacobs from Nevermet Press, as well as others, have commented on the original article. I welcome anyone who had thoughts on this to come and comment so I can start to sift through it all.

Loremaster - Game Design: Foundational Layers for 4e

 

[Erudite Frog]

Matt let us know when you get something put up. I am very interested in this.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Interesting. I think there are various issues that need to be dealt with in 4e. The game has an awful lot of 'moving parts'. Still, I think I agree with Robert, class and race are central D&D concepts. I don't think Elf and Dwarf really belong in the same bucket with Swashbuckler. Vampire? Sure.

One of the things I would want to see (and that the DS Theme mechanism doesn't deliver) is the ability to adopt a theme during play. I don't think it would be a good idea to drop things into that mechanic that can't be added during play. My fighter may become a swashbuckler, but he probably started out as a farm boy, and playing through that transition is probably pretty interesting. PPs do provide that, but as I think Robert noted in one of his blog postings a while back they (and EDs) have the same issue, you only get to make that choice at a given level, it isn't organic.

Theme-based MCing sounds promising. Again you want it to be able to happen at any level (at least within heroic tier). ALL builds could effectively be MCing by theme. There would still be a few oddities though, my Vampire Fighter couldn't also be a Swashbuckler, unless there was some more elaborate system where you could stack themes. Honestly, many classes COULD be themes as well. Warlocks? Pact Themes. Shaman? Spirit Themes (dropped on top of a core druid I'd assume for a traditional version).

The MOST important thing to keep in mind though is simplification. 4e REALLY REALLY needs to go on a diet. Moving several disparate types of mechanics into themes might be able to help with that (bloodlines, many feats, etc). It has to make player's lives simpler though.

 

[ggroy]

Eliminate the six character stats entirely, and replace them with a type of "theme" mechanic.

For example, such a mechanic could start off with a core theme representing the basic roles: striker, defender, leader, and controller.

On top of that, the next layer of themes could represent the power source: martial, primal, divine, arcane, psionic, etc ...

On and on in subsequent layers of themes.

 

[ScorpiusRisk]

One of the things I would want to see (and that the DS Theme mechanism doesn't deliver) is the ability to adopt a theme during play. I don't think it would be a good idea to drop things into that mechanic that can't be added during play. My fighter may become a swashbuckler, but he probably started out as a farm boy, and playing through that transition is probably pretty interesting. PPs do provide that, but as I think Robert noted in one of his blog postings a while back they (and EDs) have the same issue, you only get to make that choice at a given level, it isn't organic.

In the latest D&D Podcast they talked about this in regards to Paragon Paths. Someone had asked if it was ok to change Paragon Paths or Epic Destinies once they were chosen, since they couldn't find a written rule or mechanic about. They're answer was basically 'Why the heck not?'. They professed that they didn't see how it would effect balance. So as long as it made since in game, go for it.

The same could be used with themes. In fact, with some themes it just makes sense. If you get bit by a vampire at 11th level, the easiest way to represent the change is to drop your Gladiator theme and add the Vampire theme. It doesn't mean you were never a vampire, but this new condition has pushed that part of your personality down a bit.