If an NPC is telling the truth, what's the Insight DC to know they're telling the truth?

[iserith]

The only time I see a player trying to back out of something he or she has described as wanting to do is when the DC or consequences that I laid out are strikingly different than what the player had in mind. In this case, it's a mismatch of expectations and I think it's reasonable for the player to withdraw the action declaration. This is an exceedingly rare circumstance in my experience, given that I devote a lot of my effort to keeping everyone on the same page via the play loop.

 

[Charlaquin]

The only time I see a player trying to back out of something he or she has described as wanting to do is when the DC or consequences that I laid out are strikingly different than what the player had in mind. In this case, it's a mismatch of expectations and I think it's reasonable for the player to withdraw the action declaration. This is an exceedingly rare circumstance in my experience, given that I devote a lot of my effort to keeping everyone on the same page via the play loop.

Yeah, I think a lot of the kvetching over the possibility of players tossing out actions and backing out repeatedly until they get a result with odds they like is overblown. It’s a “problem” that only really exists on paper, but in actual play doesn’t really come up.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Yeah, I think a lot of the kvetching over the possibility of players tossing out actions and backing out repeatedly until they get a result with odds they like is overblown. It’s a “problem” that only really exists on paper, but in actual play doesn’t really come up.

This. I was thinking on why I didn't see this at all (except for the occasional understanding mismatch [MENTION=97077]iserith[/MENTION] mentions) is that if we're at the point of a check, it's because the player has akready decided what they want to do. It's important to stress that the situation isn't something I've placed as a generic challenge but rather one placed because it engages the characters' interests and needs. The players should already want to have their characters act because the outcome is something that natters to them. As such, declarations are already aligned with player gials and they aren't seeking an easier way past -- they want to do this thing.

Barring complete understanding mismatches, natch.

 

[Satyrn]

Ok, after 3 references to it I'm really regretting how I phrased that. One more time: it doesn't have to be the specific DC and the specific consequence, just a general sense of how hard it will be, and what sort of thing might go wrong. And, honestly, I could have (should have?) left that sentence out completely as it's only a refinement of the main point.

But in general I do think players should have some sense of how hard something will be before they attempt it. There are probably exceptions.

I don't see a problem with the section in bold at all. The DM's description of the environment is always going to be incomplete, and even where it's not the players will often get a different impression than the DM is trying to convey.

In your defense, as a DM, I totally preferpre tell the players the DC before they roll the dice. It lets them know if they succeed, instantly as soon as the d20 stops rolling. Before I know, even! In many circumstances, too, I'll tell them exactly what success and failure will mean, too. It puts a little more tension on the roll itself, instead of waiting for me to tell them the result. It also prevents me from fudging the DC.

But, if I'm spelling out all the consequences, it's right before the player rolls the dice - the character is in the midst of performing the action - and there is no backing out (barring extraordinary circumstance, such as finding out that player and DM aren't on the same page regarding what's happening*).


Edot:

*Ha! I didn't read the previous three or so posts that day this same thing before writing that line.

 

[Mort]

Do you, though? Like, I know that punishing dump stats is a time-honored tradition, but... Should it be?

I don't see it as punishing though- it's adjusting for the stats and skill choices of the players for their PC.

If Bill is playing the 8 CHA barbarian and Bob is playing the 20 CHA persuasion trained bard - their conversation with the king is likely to go very differently even if Bill and Bob the players use identical wording in trying to persuade the king.

In the same vein as if Bill the 20 Str Barbarian and Bob the 8 Str bard try to physically knock down a door. The results are likely to be very different.

 

[Guest 6801328]

I don't see it as punishing though- it's adjusting for the stats and skill choices of the players for their PC.

If Bill is playing the 8 CHA barbarian and Bob is playing the 20 CHA persuasion trained bard - their conversation with the king is likely to go very differently even if Bill and Bob the players use identical wording in trying to persuade the king.

In the same vein as if Bill the 20 Str Barbarian and Bob the 8 Str bard try to physically knock down a door. The results are likely to be very different.

I agree with this and I don't go out of my way to punish players for dumping stats.

 

[Bawylie]

Nevermind.

 

[Charlaquin]

I don't see it as punishing though- it's adjusting for the stats and skill choices of the players for their PC.

If Bill is playing the 8 CHA barbarian and Bob is playing the 20 CHA persuasion trained bard - their conversation with the king is likely to go very differently even if Bill and Bob the players use identical wording in trying to persuade the king.

In the same vein as if Bill the 20 Str Barbarian and Bob the 8 Str bard try to physically knock down a door. The results are likely to be very different.

I mean, you were the one who said “you have to have some way to reward/penalize for the player voluntarily prioritizing/dumping charisma of the character.” I’m personally not a fan of that way of thinking. I don’t feel the need to force low-charisma characters into situations where they have to make charisma checks, just to penalize their choice of stat allocation. If they choose to take actions that require Charisma checks to resolve, the lower chances of success are penalty enough. If they avoid risky social actions for fear of having to make Charisma checks, that’s also penalty enough, in my opinion. No need to manipulate events so they’ll need to make a roll with their dump stat for the dump stat to be affecting their play.

 

[Mort]

I mean, you were the one who said “you have to have some way to reward/penalize for the player voluntarily prioritizing/dumping charisma of the character.” I’m personally not a fan of that way of thinking. I don’t feel the need to force low-charisma characters into situations where they have to make charisma checks, just to penalize their choice of stat allocation. If they choose to take actions that require Charisma checks to resolve, the lower chances of success are penalty enough. If they avoid risky social actions for fear of having to make Charisma checks, that’s also penalty enough, in my opinion. No need to manipulate events so they’ll need to make a roll with their dump stat for the dump stat to be affecting their play.

I wasn't actually thinking of forcing a roll.

I was more thinking of the charismatic, well spoken player trying to downplay the 8 CHA, and still trying to act like a face.

In other words, if the player voluntarily tries to talk to the king - I'll filter the conversation with his CHA and skill level in mind.

 

[iserith]

I wasn't actually thinking of forcing a roll.

I was more thinking of the charismatic, well spoken player trying to downplay the 8 CHA, and still trying to act like a face.

In other words, if the player voluntarily tries to talk to the king - I'll filter the conversation with his CHA and skill level in mind.

I would not. I don't have the foggiest idea what the PCs' stats are for one, and no matter how charismatic or well-spoken the player is, everything I'm judging still boils down to a goal and approach. The dump stat will come into play if and when the die is cast and, given how swingy a d20 is, it probably doesn't matter all that much unless the DC is particularly high.