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If gnomes had the eladrin's powers would that make them more appealing?

Crazy Jerome

First Post
(Psi)SeveredHead said:
That is the elven niche. Elf + Eladrin = magic using fey. I don't know about before Tolkien, but ever since Lord of the Rings became popular, elves have been portrayed as magical fey.

I'd rather Eladrin be combined with Elves (and call the race "Elves") rather than creating a new race, but even so that does nothing to help gnomes.

I've only seen cool gnomes in one setting. Eberron. Too bad I played my gnome a couple of years before Eberron came out.

Trouble is, if you want to skip JRRT (which I don't, more about that in a moment), and you want to sort of scattershot bracket the wide variety of "magic using fey" into a racial niche, then you have essentially two routes to go:

1. Sidhe, and their less obvious counterparts.

2. Occasionally nasty, trickster (and not practical joker style, but meaner), almost amoral, magic using fey. In myth, these are usually short, when they aren't really part of the Sidhe option.

My problem with the Sidhe option is that it doesn't solve the main problem with "elves are immortal beings practically nursed on magic, but we made them a balanced player race." Because the Sidhe, as a group and individually, are very powerful. That brings us back into the stuff like ECL that I understand 4E has managed to drop. Or put another way, I don't mind Sidhe as monsters, but I don't want them watered down to the point where they can serve as a player race. The gnome (leprachaun, fairy, little people under the hill) option doesn't have this problem, because in myth, these creatures have been all over the map, as far as power is concerned.

So from my perspective, the designers made a tremendous choice in shunting elves proper into "wild, pointy-eared tree huggers." If some of them happen to become very powerful in magic, well, to my mind this actually fits Middle Earth better than them having some kind of native overt magic. (Saying that the woodland elves are so silent because of native, subtle magic and skill instead of mere skill is fine. That' s just flavor, and doesn't suggest every elf patrol good have a guy that can throw lightning. If individual elves become great casters, then they stand out.) Then the designers turned around and nullified the best part of that change--taking the overt magic out of the elf--by putting the eladrin in. Plus, I still think "eladrin" is one of the silliest names for a main player race, ever. :D

Now, if you've made it that far, I've just been talking about this from what would make sense to most people. What I really think they should have done is made an arrangement with Monte Cook to use the Arcana Unearthed/Evolved "faen", which are basically little people done right. The "Loresong faen" is an analog to the gnome, and a better representative of the "little people under the hill" than the gnome proper. (Quickling as analog for halfling doesn't work as well outside of AU/AE. I don't like halflings as riverfolk, but they do have a niche.) And that's actually what I'm going to do--give the faen the powers of the eladrin, and call it a day's work well done. :) Then I'll take advantage of most of the mechanical goodness in 4E, and have some very definite niches to pick from as player races:

Elves - long-lived but mortal woodland, were once fey, but have lived too long in the world to be called that any longer. Have intermarried with other mortal creatures and gained greater stature. (No need for "half elves"--elves are already part mortal. Note that this is getting away from Middle Earth, but that's fine, since Middle Earth elves don't work very well as a playable race in D&D. Or maybe you could say they are Mirkwood elves.)

Halflings - little people that ages ago mostly lost their fey connection, but haven't intermarried with other mortal creatures.

Dwarves - stone made flesh, pretty much straight out of Middle Earth. They aren't related to anyone, which is part of what makes them interesting.

Faen - little, fey people that are still that way--including "gnomes".

And of course, humans. Then I'll throw in AU/AE litorians in place of tielflings, and do some combination of the dragonborn and AU/AE drachna and mojh, as well as standard lizard folk, for my reptile race.

Seven races, each with a nice niche. You might say that my "gnomes" took an alias, and then killed the eladrin and tielfings and took their stuff that was worth taking. :D
 
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Thyrwyn

Explorer
TwinBahamut said:
No, Legend of Mana got it from Secret of Mana, the one true Seiken Densetsu game. ;) Beyond that, Paraceisus is certainly the true origin. Earth Gnomes are also seen in a lot of other videogames, like the Tales of ... series, Drakengard 2, and probably a few more.

I was rather surprised to see someone accuse me of making a RuneQuest reference... I don't know a thing about RuneQuest. Is it some other Tabletop RPG?
RuneQuest is a skill based RPG dating back to the late 1970's - published by Chaosium originally and later Avalon Hill now Mongoose. The system is also the foundation for Stormbringer, Call of Cthulhu, HawkMoon, Elfquest. . . .

Anyway, the default setting for RQ is Glorantha and uses Salamanders, Sylphs, Gnomes, Shades (Darkness), and Lunes (Moon). see Wikipedia - Glorantha sorry to derail the thread. . .
 


Belgarath

First Post
My problem with the gnome has always been that they really seem paradoxal (sp?). The description on the race talks about them being alchemist, builders and inventor and then all the racial abilities point towards them being illusionist and then the favored class is bard?


It always seemed to me that people could never really decide what the stereotypical gnome was like.
 

Cactot

First Post
Moochava said:
Though it seems unfair that the eladrins basically gobbled up the gnomes' "shtick"...I'm kinda glad they did. I know that if my players are given the choice between two magical fey races, and one is tall and stylish like Elric or Elrond, and one is three feet tall like Yoda or that guy in the Masters of the Universe movie, I know which one they're going to go for. WotC is just trying to maximize the appeal of each PHB race, and...I say this as someone who's played more gnome wizards than is entirely healthy...gnomes just aren't appealing to most people. At least not when compared to a race of elven magicians.

Although I do not disagree with you, i HATE this. I absolutely detest the way they went with racial selections in 4e, so far it is one of my very few complaints. I HATE tieflings (omg i am so r0x i have demon blood!), tall super-model elves (oh wow! i look like a stick figure and am ripped directly out of JRRT's writing), and dragonborn (i am a dragon, RAWR! the only dragon-men i have liked were the guys from dragonlance who turned to stone when you killed them)

A list of better replacements:
GNOMES (gnomes are full of win, mabye some innate illusion powers or something, also good dex/int and natural bonuses to hide) maybe a whispergnome or forest gnome variant would be rad too

Goblins/Kobolds (small, ugly and often evil fun races!)

Bugbears (strong, ugly and often evil super fun race! the coolest of the goblinoids, IMHO and not nearly as boring as orcs / half-orcs)

Half-Giant (must all big/strong races be ugly and evil? i think not!)

If you must have two versions of elves have one stouter and medium height (the wood/wild elf style) and have the other shorter and thinner and more magical (standard mythology style). Or give those magical abilites to the gnomes and just eliminate the second style of elf completely.
 

Crazy Jerome said:
Trouble is, if you want to skip JRRT (which I don't, more about that in a moment), and you want to sort of scattershot bracket the wide variety of "magic using fey" into a racial niche, then you have essentially two routes to go:

1. Sidhe, and their less obvious counterparts.

2. Occasionally nasty, trickster (and not practical joker style, but meaner), almost amoral, magic using fey. In myth, these are usually short, when they aren't really part of the Sidhe option.

My problem with the Sidhe option is that it doesn't solve the main problem with "elves are immortal beings practically nursed on magic, but we made them a balanced player race." Because the Sidhe, as a group and individually, are very powerful. That brings us back into the stuff like ECL that I understand 4E has managed to drop. Or put another way, I don't mind Sidhe as monsters, but I don't want them watered down to the point where they can serve as a player race. The gnome (leprachaun, fairy, little people under the hill) option doesn't have this problem, because in myth, these creatures have been all over the map, as far as power is concerned.

I'm only slightly familiar with sidhe because I've played one session of Changeling (heh). They sound cool, but I don't think many people know much about them.

Sidhe make cool NPCs, but I still think elves make cooler PCs than gnomes. As long as elves are around, they'll "KO" the magic fey gnomes (who are treading on the same niche). I also don't think elves and sidhe can't exist in the same setting. DnD has lots of powerful fey to begin with, and lots of weaker ones too.

So from my perspective, the designers made a tremendous choice in shunting elves proper into "wild, pointy-eared tree huggers." If some of them happen to become very powerful in magic, well, to my mind this actually fits Middle Earth better than them having some kind of native overt magic. (Saying that the woodland elves are so silent because of native, subtle magic and skill instead of mere skill is fine. That' s just flavor, and doesn't suggest every elf patrol good have a guy that can throw lightning. If individual elves become great casters, then they stand out.) Then the designers turned around and nullified the best part of that change--taking the overt magic out of the elf--by putting the eladrin in. Plus, I still think "eladrin" is one of the silliest names for a main player race, ever. :D

I agree... that's why I think eladrins should be combined with elves. But that has little to do with gnomes.

Now, if you've made it that far, I've just been talking about this from what would make sense to most people. What I really think they should have done is made an arrangement with Monte Cook to use the Arcana Unearthed/Evolved "faen", which are basically little people done right. The "Loresong faen" is an analog to the gnome, and a better representative of the "little people under the hill" than the gnome proper. (Quickling as analog for halfling doesn't work as well outside of AU/AE. I don't like halflings as riverfolk, but they do have a niche.) And that's actually what I'm going to do--give the faen the powers of the eladrin, and call it a day's work well done. :) Then I'll take advantage of most of the mechanical goodness in 4E, and have some very definite niches to pick from as player races:

Elves - long-lived but mortal woodland, were once fey, but have lived too long in the world to be called that any longer. Have intermarried with other mortal creatures and gained greater stature. (No need for "half elves"--elves are already part mortal. Note that this is getting away from Middle Earth, but that's fine, since Middle Earth elves don't work very well as a playable race in D&D. Or maybe you could say they are Mirkwood elves.)

Halflings - little people that ages ago mostly lost their fey connection, but haven't intermarried with other mortal creatures.

Dwarves - stone made flesh, pretty much straight out of Middle Earth. They aren't related to anyone, which is part of what makes them interesting.

Faen - little, fey people that are still that way--including "gnomes".

Interesting. I'm only a little familiar with AE, but I recall the flying faen being pretty cool.

Seven races, each with a nice niche. You might say that my "gnomes" took an alias, and then killed the eladrin and tielfings and took their stuff that was worth taking. :D

That might be for the best. But to be honest, if nothing like that makes it into the 4e, it'll have next to no impact on me.
 

AllisterH

First Post
What is this "magical fey" niche you people speak of?

I know they were given the fluff of being tricksters, pranksters and could be illusionists, but that's not what they presented as in the ACTUAL campaign settings.

In previous editions, the niche for gnomes was either "cousin race to DWARVES" as the fluff text IIRC for both FR and GH was that gnome villages were almost always located next to dwarves and the more common niche of "tinkerer/inventors/engineers" thanks to Dragonlance.

The latter is certainly the most common niche that TSR went with (Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms, Mystara) if they didn't outright kill them off (Birthright, Darksun). Do you know that the gnomes are the only "core" race that got excised from 2E campaign settings?

Where does this gnome love come from, since it certainly wasn't TSR that bolstered it.
 

Wiman

First Post
Wow I'm surprised gnome's have any defenders, I personally like them myself but only because I liked Terry Brooks' "The Sword of Shanara" - gnome's were downright militant in those books.

Which means I like them as opponents and sorry to say we'll see a lot more of them at my table as they make alliances with kolbolds and goblins to storm the good guy's cities. And yes I'm making them allies with racial enemies in editions past for my own twisted reasons. :p
 

med stud

First Post
I never disliked gnomes due to their powers. I disliked them for not having any niche besides being hillbilly dwarves whos god was known to be a prankster (Garl Glittergold). I also don't like short PC races, so for me, giving gnomes the eladrins' powers wouldn't make them more appealing.
 

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