If you played "Mage: The Ascension" w/magic , please read! Looking for advice!

[LoPaC]

Ive been trying to work on a way to adapt the White Wolf system of magic use for D20. The Elements of Magic helped me realize this could be done. So, my buddy in DMing helped look over the system I've come up with, and I'd like to take some constructive critisim on the system from you all, my peers. So, please, read it over, and post what you think works and doesnt. Thanks.
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Correspondence - Understanding of connections and distances
Entropy - Study of chaos, decay, and randomness
Forces - The power of the elements: fire, electricity, sound, water, and air
Life - Influence over living things
Matter - Power over base materials and objects
Mind - Empowerment, telepathy, and mental communication and control
Spirit - Sensitivity to the Invisible world, to places and things beyond the material
Time - Control over the perceptions of and flow of the sands of the hourglass

There are 8 spheres of magic, listed above. Each school is advanced similar to a skill. You get X amount of magic skill points based on your class. To cast magic, you get X amount of mana points per day, again based on your class. Magic spheres can and usually have to be combined to get desired effects. This system has unlimited possibilities. Any spell you cast from the standard DnD spell list can be replicated with this system. Examples would be:

Fireball: Forces and Correspondence. To erupt the fire, and send it a distance

Scrying: Correspondence, unless you wanted to look in the past/future, then you use Time with it

Astral Projection: Spirit and Correspondence. To project your spirit a distance from yourself.
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Class--------Magic Skill Points per Level-----Mana points per day-----Restricted schools

Bard---------3 + Cha Modifier-----(6 + Cha Modifier) X 2-----Force

Cleric--------4 + Wis Modifier-----(6 + Wis Modifier) X 2-----Time, Mind, Force, Matter

Druid--------4 + Wis Modifier-----(8 + Wis Modifier) X 2-----Time, Force

Paladin------3 + Cha Modifier-----(8 + Cha Modifier) X 2-----Time, Mind, Matter, Correspondence, Entropy

Ranger-------2 + Wis Modifier-----(4 + Wis Modifier) X 2-----Time, Spirit, Life, Entropy

Sorcerer-----3 + Cha Modifier-----(8 + Cha Modifier) X 2-----None

Wizard-------4 + Int Modifier-----(6 + Int Modifier) X 2-----None
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Each sphere affects a different amount of weight/area/level/ability/HD. The listing goes as follows:

Sphere------ Affects per rank

Correspondence------20 sq. ft.
Entropy------1 HD; 1 Level; 10 lbs.;10 sq. ft.; 1d6 damage
Forces------1d6 damage; 10 lbs.; 1 STR
Life------1 HD; 1 CON
Matter------10 sq. ft.; 20 lbs.
Mind------1 INT; 1d6 Subdual Damage
Spirit------1 HD; 1 Level
Time------10 day/1 week

1HD being a d8 also, as Life could heal 1HD (d8) per rank

 

[TwoSix]

What about Prime?

 

[LoPaC]

Ive been trying to think of a way to include Prime. My first thoguth was to keep it jsut like WW, with needing Prime to creat any effect from nothing. But my friend pointed out that the DnD world is often filled with magic, unlike the goth-punk setting in Mage. Im still trying to think of a way to put it in, possibly like you need prime equal to the highest sphere you are using, and the highest sphere is the mana cost also.

 

[Afrodyte]

As a devoted fan of Mage: the Ascension, I am starting to wonder what you are trying to do with this system. Part of what makes Spheres a viable option is the lack of hard-and-fast rules regarding what can be done with them outside a broad description. The descriptions you have for each Sphere are severely limited compared to what's offered in Mage:the Ascension. In fact, aside from the names, the Spheres barely resemble what's in Mage:the Ascension. Perhaps this is intentional, but if you were aiming for something a bit more flexible with d20 magic, it needs a great deal of tweaking.

My major issue with the mechanics you have here is that seems needlessly complicated. You not only need a skill to cast magic, but you also must keep track of mana points. Also, you still have a limit on how many mana points you can spend per day, which limits which spells you can cast and how many times per day. Why use this instead of sticking with spell slots?

Your selling point seems to be that you can cast any standard D&D spell with this system. Great, so now what? If the parameters of the spheres are so limited that it is difficult to create various effects in various ways (ie, there is more than one way to set soemthing on fire), it almost defeats the purpose of your system. One of the things that makes Mage's magic system work is that you could conceivably do just about anything as long as it is in line with your character's paradigm. Since Mage's thematic elements will not play as large a part in your system, more work will have to be done to justify the way magic works the way it does.

Why, for instance, do you have the restrictions for classes? For instance, you note that Forces controls air and sound, yet you prohibit Bards from learning it. I'm not sure about you, but I think more people would be eager to play bards if they could someday cause storms with the power of their song. Are you sure that a Druid would be unable to control the weather (another use of Forces)? With Entropy, a character can sense the weak points in things, beings, events, and forces and perhaps bring them out. The Smite Evil and Favored Enemy abilities of the Paladin and Ranger work well with Entropy. With Correspondence, Entropy, Mind, and Time, a Paladin could sense the importance of a place, person, or event to a quest she has. She could even lay a quest onto someone as a way of making him or her repent wrongdoing. Do you want Paladins unable to do this? Could you explain why a Cleric of Wee Jas would not have the Entropy, Mind, or Time Spheres? Do Druids lack the power to maximize the growth period of living things? When you prohibit Matter, are you saying that you do not want that particular class to make more durable, more solidly constructed items?

I would be more inclined to give favored Spheres as opposed to penalizing or prohibiting Spheres. Consider how they do Traditions in Mage. You could easily work them into class models. The Celestial Chorus and Verbena work especially well for Clerics (and Paladins) and Druids (as well as Rangers and Clerics of nature deities) respectively. The Order of Hermes works well for your standard wizards, as do the Sons of Ether. Dreamspeakers could work for Druids and Clerics.

In all honesty, I don't think that Mage:the Ascension translates well to d20, at least not in this way. A more easily translatable system, I think, would be Ars Magica. From what I've heard of it, I think that the system flows much better than that of Mage, and it offers even more versatility and flexibility. You may want to give it a look because that setup may have what you are looking for to translate most smoothly.

I'm not trying to slam your efforts. I can see the need for a more flexible, logical magic system in d20. However, simply transporting Mage:the Ascension may not be the best way to go about it, as there are systematic elements in the game that make it work the way it does that are generally missing in d20 magic. If, however, you are also going to use the rules for paradox and resonance, though the rules would still need more tweaking, the results could completely change what is done with d20 magic.

Small note: Astral projection, in Mage, needs only Mind because it is your consciousness that floats around. Just as you do not need Correspondence to walk a block, you do not need it to travel astrally. However, if you want to make travel go by faster, or instantaneously go from one place to another, you do need Correspondence.

 

[LoPaC]

Re: Re: If you played "Mage: The Ascension" w/magic , please read! Looking for advice!

Why, for instance, do you have the restrictions for classes? For instance, you note that Forces controls air and sound, yet you prohibit Bards from learning it. I'm not sure about you, but I think more people would be eager to play bards if they could someday cause storms with the power of their song. Are you sure that a Druid would be unable to control the weather (another use of Forces)? With Entropy, a character can sense the weak points in things, beings, events, and forces and perhaps bring them out. The Smite Evil and Favored Enemy abilities of the Paladin and Ranger work well with Entropy. With Correspondence, Entropy, Mind, and Time, a Paladin could sense the importance of a place, person, or event to a quest she has. She could even lay a quest onto someone as a way of making him or her repent wrongdoing. Do you want Paladins unable to do this? Could you explain why a Cleric of Wee Jas would not have the Entropy, Mind, or Time Spheres? Do Druids lack the power to maximize the growth period of living things? When you prohibit Matter, are you saying that you do not want that particular class to make more durable, more solidly constructed items?

Damn. And you know whats sucks, is I understnd and agree with your point, lol. What is this "Ars Magica" that you mentioned? I've never heard of it, so I would like to see what it has. And I realize you werent looking to ruin my day. Thats why I posted, I wanted feedback

 

[Afrodyte]

You can find a list of the magical abilities here . It's extensive, and in my own magic system, I usually go with five powers and five domains, but very broadly defined. Here is a copy & paste from my Changeling rewrites of Arts and Realms. The arts are:

• Conjure, or create something out of nothing. Usually, this Art manifests as something suddenly popping out of thin air or out of places where they are not supposed to (such as rabbits from top hats or fireballs from fingers).
  Perceive something. This isn’t just related to the five primary senses, but also to the sixth sense that alerts a person to the presence of the not-quite-natural. ESP is a common manifestation of this Art.
  Transmute, or alter the form or properties of something. A favorite from myth and legend, this covers a variety of changes, both large and small. Turning princes into toads, fire into water, or men into stone statues are all parts of the Transmute Art.
  Destroy something. A very powerful Art indeed, it is the complement to Conjure. However, it covers much more than killing things. One frequent use of Destroy is to cover up fae activity by making mortals forget things they have seen.
  Move something. In mortal terms, this covers telekinesis, but it can also refer to any transferal of things. Consider the final scene in The Crow.

The realms are:

• 
  Energy includes those forces of nature which complement matter. For game purposes, there are five types: heat/cold, light/darkness, electricity, magnetism, and gravity.
  Mind governs thoughts, perceptions, dreams, emotions, and other psychological states. Manipulating the minds of sentient beings falls into this category.
  Matter covers all forms of inert and organic matter.
  Scene covers a particular place, or the concept of space itself.
  Time determines not only how long your character wants an effect to last, but also when he wants it to begin. It is particularly great to combine with other Realms to create blessings, curses, and other time-dependent effects (such as distorting time).

So, to control the weather would require a combination of Energy and Matter, perhaps even Scene to make it cover a large area. In d20 terms, I would make characters pick a certain number of arts, and a certain number of realms to have at the beginning of play. They can gain more with Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana) as they advance in level. The DC for casting depends on how powerful the spell is (haven't figured this out yet), but your level in the spellcasting class determines the skill ranks you have in it, modified by the relevant spellcasting ability. I'm inclined to favor Wisdom and/or Charisma for actually casting, but use Intelligence for learning.

I hope this helps.

 

[Afrodyte]

I thought this might be a little helpful too.

d20 Ars Magica

 

[Nifft]

Mage: The Ascention has more than just Spheres which restrict the Effects you can generate -- it has "Paradigms".

I'd use some form of "Path" in place of "Paradigms", to determine the exact effects you could generate.

Here's how I see the spheres in terms of D&D magic:

Forces:
1) Low-Light Vision, Darkvision
2) Blur, Pyrotechnics
3) Fireball, Call Lightning
4) Chain Lightning, Control Weather

Prime:
1) Detect Magic
2) Recharge Power Points
3) Dispel Magic
4) Permanency

Spirit: -- NOT my forte
1) Detect Spirit (Outsider, Undead, Elemental, etc.)
2) See Invisible, Protection from Evil
3) Speak with Dead, Step Sideways (Etherial Jaunt)
4) Dispel Spirit (Outsider, Undead, Elemental, etc.)

Life:
1) Detect Plants or Animals, Deathwatch
2) Alter Self, Biofeedback
3) Heal Other, Bull's Strength
4) Cure Disease / Blindness, Polymorph Self

Entropy: -- personally I'd split this into two Spheres, + and -, Abjuration and Necromancy
1) -Detect Undead, +Probe for Weakness
2) -Ray of Enfeeblement, -Doom, +Gentle Repose, +Entropic Shield
3) -Bestow Curse, +Bless, +Pass Without Trace
4) -Enervate, +Wind Wall

Matter: -- again, not my forte
1) Identify Material
2) Hold Portal, Skate
3) Stone Shape, Rock to Mud
4)

Correspondence:
1) Blindsight (5-10')
2) Far Punch, Call Weapon
3) Dimension Door
4) Teleport

Mind:
1) Detect Minds
2) Read Surface Thoughts
3) Telepathy, Charm Person
4) Modify Memory, Emotion

Time:
1) Detect Age
2) Hustle
3) skip self only forward in time by 2d4 rounds
4) that Psi power where you knock someone forward in time 3d6 rounds

... but the fun stuff is always the CONJUNCTION of spheres:

Confusion: Mind 2, -Entropy 2
Clairvoyance: Correspondance 2, Forces 1
Endure Element: Forces 2, +Entropy 2
Detect Poison: Matter 1, Life 1
Cure Poison: Matter 2, Life 3
Keen Edge: Matter 3, Prime 2
Create Ghost Touch Weapon: Spirit 2, Matter 3, Prime 2
Mass Heal: Correspondence 3, Life 4
Insanity: Mind 3, -Entropy 3
Heat Metal: Matter 2, Forces 2
Warp Wood: Matter 2, -Entropy 2
Message: Correspondance 2, Mind 2
Haste: Time 3, Life 3
Slow: Time 2, Life 3, -Entropy 2
Stoneskin: Matter 2, Life 4, +Entropy 2
Animate Object: Matter 3, Spirit 3
Delay Poison: Time 2, Matter or Life 2
Barkskin: Matter 1, Life 2
Delay Blast Fireball: Time 2, Forces 3
Horrid Wilting: Life 4, -Entropy 4
Gate: Correspondance 5, Spirit 4
Time Stop: Time 5, Life 4
Magic Weapon: Matter 3, Prime 1
Magic Fang: Life 3, Prime 1
Dominate Person: Mind 4, Correspondance 2
Flesh to Stone: Life 3, Matter 3
Disintegrate: -Entropy 3, Correspondence 3, Matter 3
Death Ward: +Entropy 3, Life 2
Finger of Death: -Entropy 4, Life 3

Now assign each specific effect to a "Path", and make Paths cost something like Feats.

-- Nifft