Illusions: So you failed your saving throw...

[Lonely Tylenol]

Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief): Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.

A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.

A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.

So, what exactly does this mean? Let's say Mitch the fighter is fighting two orcs in a narrow hallway, one of which is an illusion (for argument's sake, it includes all sensory aspects available). The real orc hits him with an axe, doing some damage. He swats the real orc, and it dies. Moving up, he swats at the fake orc, and fails his saving throw (he's interacted with it). The illusionist is hiding somewhere, orchestrating the illusionary orc. He (as mentioned in the spell description) makes the fake orc look like he was hurt. A little. The orc swings back at him, and clumsily misses.

Mitch fights on. He whacks and whacks at the orc. It seems as though the orc is just really darn tough, because he's not going down. Mysteriously, the orc rolls with the blows so that it never quite feels as though Mitch is making contact with his weapon. Of course, the orc is not landing any solid blows either. Finally, another party member calls out "he's an illusion!" Mitch tries to make his save again, and fails.

So, what happens? Mitch still sees an orc there, and it still seems really real. But he knows it's not real. But he failed his saving throw to disbelieve. What are his options? Can he just walk through the illusionary orc? Can he bring himself to let down his guard long enough to try it, since he still perceives the orc to be real? Does he, somewhere in the back of his mind think, "of course it's not an illusion, I can see/smell/hear/feel it!" He has no "proof" that it's an illusion, since he hasn't seen anything too weird happen yet. His mind is not clouded, but it's still probably hard to accept that the very real seeming orc can't actually hurt him, and he could just walk through it, especially since he faced another just seconds ago that did hurt him. How is this situation supposed to be arbitrated?

Does "it's an illusion" automatically render everyone able to operate as though there were no illusion there, regardless of their saving throws? For that matter, if all illusion spells require a saving throw in order to "disbelieve," why does it matter whether the illusion includes scent, sound, or thermal aspects. Even if it doesn't feel like the orc is getting struck when you strike him, if you fail your save, you don't perceive anything amiss. According to the rules, you don't notice it's an illusion unless you make your save, even if the illusion lacks verisilimitude in this fashion. A Minor Image orc seems as real as a Major Image orc, so long as your Will save is terrible.

There's no indication as to what it means to be fooled by the illusion. Since you can fall for an illusionary orc that's essentially a silent cardboard cutout, and not "notice that something is amiss," there seems to be something more going on with these illusion spells than just a magical picture of an orc. I'd notice if I were attacked by a silent orc that not only couldn't hit me with his axe, but also didn't feel like anything when I hit him with mine. Will save aside, that screams "illusion." But Mitch can't make that mental leap, because he failed his save, so he doesn't notice anything at all odd about the orc. If another person walks through the orc, suddenly Mitch doesn't need to make a save after all, since he now has proof that it's an illusion. But until that event, Mitch's belief in the orc is unshakable.

I'd really like to see some kind of further guidelines or fleshing-out of the illusion rules to cover what happens to someone who just can't seem to make his saving throw, no matter how obvious the illusion is. If nobody had cried out "it's an illusion," Mitch could have stood there fighting that orc forever, since he never would have noticed that something fishy was going on, according to the rules. And what's the functional difference between a Major Image and a Heightened Minor Image, if they're both equally as likely to fool Mitch the fighter?

 

[Thanee]

So, what exactly does this mean? Let's say Mitch the fighter is fighting two orcs in a narrow hallway, one of which is an illusion (for argument's sake, it includes all sensory aspects available). The real orc hits him with an axe, doing some damage. He swats the real orc, and it dies. Moving up, he swats at the fake orc, and fails his saving throw (he's interacted with it).

At this point, he already knows it is an illusion (automatic disbelief, because he has a proof, that the second orc cannot be real (his weapon went right through - assuming he did hit the AC of 10 )).

A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw.

He makes the save at the point, where he is in combat with the orc, right in the first round, since then he is already interacting with the illusion.


In the end, of course, it is to be adjudicated by the DM, what "interaction" and "proof" means exactly. The above is just my interpretation.

And what's the functional difference between a Major Image and a Heightened Minor Image, if they're both equally as likely to fool Mitch the fighter?

The difference is mostly, that you can do more different things with the Major Image (more senses covered), and it remains for an extra round after concentration has lapsed.

Bye
Thanee

 

[drnuncheon]

Here's how it would go:

Mitch engages the illusionary orc. He gets no save because he hasn't interacted with it, so he treats it like a real orc.

When he attacks it, he is interacting with it, so he gets a save - basically, to see if he notices something wrong with the illusion. He misses his save, so he doesn't realize that the orc isn't actually dodging his blows - after all, he can see it, hear it, smell it, feel the heat from its breath...

Bob cries out, "It's an illusion!" Mitch gets a +4 to his save, and fails again. That orc is there. He doesn't know it's not real - he thinks that Bob is wrong. Someone simply saying "that's an illusion" isn't proof - it's just enough to get you that +4 to your save as you start realy scrutinizing what you are seeing. Now, if Bob ran over and stuck his hand through the orc, that would be proof.

J

 

[dcollins]

At this point, he already knows it is an illusion (automatic disbelief, because he has a proof, that the second orc cannot be real (his weapon went right through - assuming he did hit the AC of 10 )).

This I have to disagree with -- of course, part of the issue is the description assuming that the fighter "hit" the orc. Why would the illusionist allow this to happen? The fighter would not be hitting the orc, the orc would be dodging and weaving and never quite take the hit (maybe he's got very high Dex, maybe he's got magical armor or deflection bonuses).

Hence no automatic disbelief. The example in the PHB involves fighting a giant, which generates a saving throw, but not automatic disbelief.

 

[Enkhidu]

Here's how it would go:

Mitch engages the illusionary orc. He gets no save because he hasn't interacted with it, so he treats it like a real orc.

When he attacks it, he is interacting with it, so he gets a save - basically, to see if he notices something wrong with the illusion. He misses his save, so he doesn't realize that the orc isn't actually dodging his blows - after all, he can see it, hear it, smell it, feel the heat from its breath...

Bob cries out, "It's an illusion!" Mitch gets a +4 to his save, and fails again. That orc is there. He doesn't know it's not real - he thinks that Bob is wrong. Someone simply saying "that's an illusion" isn't proof - it's just enough to get you that +4 to your save as you start realy scrutinizing what you are seeing. Now, if Bob ran over and stuck his hand through the orc, that would be proof.

J

I've got to agree with the good dr, though I'd also lean toward the idea that if Mitch had an inkling that something was amiss with the illusion (who know, maybe Bob has spotted this kind of thing before) and failed his save, he could still do something that would equal proof - grappling comes to mind as a good example, as would simply entering the opponent's square (though that last one would come with some pretty hefty penalties if the orc turned out not to be an illusion!).

 

[entr0py]

Way back since 1st edition our group had a way of dealing with illusions that we felt was more simple than any printed rule on the subject. Basically Illusions -- like real objects -- are made up of sensory componants: visual, audible, ofactory, thermal, and tactile.

Per the original spell descriptions, the lowest level and simplest illusions only had a visible componant, and more componants were added as spell level increased.

Our House Rule:
1) Illusions are VISUALLY real. (except for those that by spell description are only present in the recipient's mind.) Therefore, an illusionary wall, that is discovered as such, remains blocking sight and light for the spell duration. It doesn't suddenly get translusent or disappear when discovered. This made illusions great for hiding and concealment and, frankly, more fun to use.

2) In order to discover an illusion for what it is, one must interact with it. Because we treated illusions as visually real, merely looking at the illusion would not reveal it as such.

Every componant missing from the object that the character interacted with -- for example an illusionary candle that gave off no heat would allow all an immediate saving throw, at a cumulative +4 per missing sensory componant, to disbelieve. Of course the person had to be close enough to the phantasm to notice the missing heat. If he chose to "disbelieve" from across the room, a saving throw would be allowed, but successful or not he would continue to see the candle as a candle -- because visually, its real. Even if disbelief was successful and the illusion was discovered, the image remained, visually real, giving candlelite to its area of effect.

Each time an illusion is interacted with -- say touching an illusionary wall that lacked the tactile componant. An immediate saving throw was allowed the interacting person (with a +4 for lacking tactile componant.) An illusionary orc that has all the sensory componants, but on which the caster has ceased consentration, stops "reacting appropriatly" granting all that swing to hit it an immediate saving throw -- with +4 benefit because of the missing reactions.

The illusionary orc that one was fighting better have all the sensory componants and a mage actively concentrating on making his creation react appropriatly or the illusion would soon be discovered. Even after discovery however, the illusionary orc would visually remain, like a mystical hologram going thru the motions until the spell expired.

Of course the toughest illusions to discover were those with all the necessary componants present and little or no reaction required. A permanent illusionary wall could be disbelieved, with a saving throw, and if successful, could be passed thru. Or knocking on the wall with a sword generates no "clink". These actions would individually grant all who saw or heard an immediate save at +4, or +8 if both actions occurred. (because with these actions, the image didn't react properly.)

3) Illusions that duplicated instantaneous spell effects, like an illusionary fireball, needed to be created by an illusion spell of equivalent or better level (in this case 3rd level or better), or the created effect was just not believable enough to be effective. A successful save caused no damage. A failed save caused full (subduel) damage. Futhermore the illusion better have the thermal componant or the saving throw is made by those in the AoE with a +4 bonus.

I hope this response is some benefit to your games.

 

[drnuncheon]

2) In order to discover an illusion for what it is, one must interact with it. Because we treated illusions as visually real, merely looking at the illusion would not reveal it as such.

Generally when my players make a saving throw vs. illusion they notice something 'not right', with that error sometimes being visual. I think I had a group of illusionary duergar be discovered by the fact that they were placed half an inch too low and intersected the floor, like a clipping error in a 3d video game.

J

 

[frankthedm]

incorporeal creatures make good illusions.

 

[nameless]

incorporeal creatures make good illusions.

Yup. So does fire and gases. Also utter darkness. You can disbelieve in your own darkness and function fine, enemies are blinded unless they disbelieve.

 

[Malimar]

Smoke & Mirrors

Finally, another party member calls out "he's an illusion!" Mitch tries to make his save again, and fails.

So, what happens? Mitch still sees an orc there, and it still seems really real. But he knows it's not real. But he failed his saving throw to disbelieve. What are his options? Can he just walk through the illusionary orc?

No, Mitch can't. He failed the save, so his mind and body "believe" that there's an orc there attacking him. With mind over body, if he tried to move through the orc, his body would stop him subconsciously.

Can he bring himself to let down his guard long enough to try it, since he still perceives the orc to be real?

He could, but if he took an illusionary hit, he'd take illusionary damage. That damage can stack up and cause the character to go unconscious (like subdual damage) or possibly have a heart attack and die. That's how I've always played it from 1st edition to now.

Does he, somewhere in the back of his mind think, "of course it's not an illusion, I can see/smell/hear/feel it!" He has no "proof" that it's an illusion, since he hasn't seen anything too weird happen yet. His mind is not clouded, but it's still probably hard to accept that the very real seeming orc can't actually hurt him, and he could just walk through it, especially since he faced another just seconds ago that did hurt him. How is this situation supposed to be arbitrated?

Since he failed the save, something in the back of his mind fiercely tells him that the orc is real. Mitch must continue to operate as if the orc was real until something happens to give him another save, the caster dispells the illusion, someone else dispells it, or the illusion "kills" Mitch.

Does "it's an illusion" automatically render everyone able to operate as though there were no illusion there, regardless of their saving throws?

Only those who made their saving throws can operate knowing that it's an illusion; the rest fully believe and act accordingly. With a particularly powerful illusion half the party can "get it" and ignore the illusion (or help the others disbelieve), and the other half are forced to deal with the illusion's elements.

For PC illusions I usually make the castor portray the illusions as realisticly as possible. If they chose they could make that orc dodge every blow... or take heaps of damage... or sprout a dragon's head and breath on poor Mitch... but anything that unbelievable would provoke an additional saving throw. I do the same for NPC illusions... usually if the npc caster forgets a detail only the PC's would know.

For that matter, if all illusion spells require a saving throw in order to "disbelieve," why does it matter whether the illusion includes scent, sound, or thermal aspects.

If an illusion has no sound, then that might allow another disbelieve check. If the orc attacking Mitch was perfectly silent (down to silent weapons clanging on Mitch's shield), but looked real, he might get another save. Back in 1E/2E when infravision was heat vision, illusions without thermal components wouldn't fool elves in the dark, because they wouldn't see the heat. The elf would get an automatic or additional save.

Smells allow illusions to fool creatures with scent... etc...

Illusions are tough to adjucate. They had a large section in 2E that went over guidlines, and even that didn't cover all the possibilities. Personally I love illusions because it provides for a lot of out of the box thinking for both DM's and players.

I hope that clears something up.