I'm a bad DM part 2

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

You did it the right way. Bad luck happens.

Wow, you wiped them out with a mind flayer? TPKs rarely involve wimpy monsters!

I almost did this once, but this was back in 3.0 psionics when the save DC was semi-randomly set. With a high roll, only the cleric avoided being stunned, and that's because they rolled a natural 15 (minimum requirement).

 

[Obscure]

The BBEG had a TPK in 3 rounds. Everybody was stunned, and the MF could do his instant kill attacks before the stun wore off.

A couple of comments on this particular encounter. The DC for the MF's mind blast given in the module is incorrect --- it should be DC 20 instead of DC 23 (see the last post of this thread for confirmation of this).

Also, a lot of people misinterpret the rules for being stunned. Not sure if this applied to your session, but stunned characters are not helpless, they are simply unable to take actions (standard actions and/or move actions). Reactionary rolls like resisting a grapple attempt or trip attempt are not actions, and thus anyone stunned by a MF can try to resist having their brain sucked out by beating the MF's grapple checks.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I kind of agree you should go all out, but it depends on the BBEG. Having a BBEG cave in and surrender at the last moment has it's own bizarre taste, too. Anyway, achieving a TPK via a rules violation doesn't sit well with me. What instagib attack did the BBEG really have?

 

[the Jester]

I voted "You should do this", but what I really mean is, "All npcs should fight to the best of their ability, BBEG or not." This is a game style choice and not a value judgement, however.

It's not that you are trying for the tpk- the bad guy is trying for the tpk. If there is no chance of the party losing, victory is not nearly as sweet.

Now, not all groups enjoy this style of play, and that's fine; but for me, a high-lethality game is a higher-fun game (as a general rule) than a game where death never, or rarely, happens.

 

[Jedi_Solo]

If the PCs know what is coming and know how to prepair for it (knowing they are up against a Mind Flayer doesn't do the party any good if all they know about the Flayer is that it's a "Squid Guy") then the BBEG can cut loose.

Losing out to low save roles (which sounds like what happened) is a lousy way to end a campaign - but it happens. Sometimes the dice are against the DM, sometimes they rally agianst the party. But that is all that happened here: bad luck, not bad DMing.

 

[DanFor]

A TPK at a convention, using pre-generated characters, is fun. A TPK at a regular D&D "home" session, using PCs created by the players, is the exact opposite of fun (unless you're playing Call of Cthulhu). Why would you or your players want to play a game that wasn't fun?

 

[Wik]

I played in a game that headed for a TPK. And there was no warning it was coming - we had been going through easier fights, and as a group, we were used to that general style of play. Our group of 4 3rd level character would come across the hobgoblin fighters, and we'd decimate them, taking a few hits. While there were hard times (my 1st level spellthief bumped into the BBEG - a 3rd level kobold warrior - by himself early on in the adventure, and was knocked out), the campaign generally had this "easy" feel to it.

Then, we get hit by a HUGE fight (three ogres, with a few levels in barbarian and optimized feats, vs. 4 close-range 4th level characters) that very quickly kills the group.

It was an unbalanced fight, but it was also a new GM, and we would have said something like "Hey, you misjudged the monster's strength, it happens sometims", were it not for one factor:

The GM laughed while he killed the group.

This pissed us all off, and now, we've manipulated events around our gaming table so that he doesn't get much time to GM.

So, I'm not going to say you're a bastard GM for a TPK - these things do happen. But then, I'm not at the table - If I knew how you HANDLED the TPK, things might change.

I voted for "It's low, but I'd still play" simply because I firmly believe that a TPK (unless it's early in the campaign) is typically the fault of the GM - he misjudged the playing abilities/character strengths/monster strengths of the encounter, and the whole party suffered as a result.

 

[AuraSeer]

I fight nasty and capitalise party weaknesses. I don't cheat to kill them, but I definetly try.

It's fine to work against party weaknesses that the NPC knows about, or can at least deduce. This includes common knowledge like forcing Will saves from the armored guys who carry swords, and Fort saves from the guy in a bathrobe and pointy hat.

It would be cheating if you used nonobvious information about party weaknesses. For instance, if the front-line armored guy happens to have an unusually low Fort save, he's still not likely to be the target of spells that require such a save. If an NPC does not have in-game knowledge of the weakness, you should not have them capitalize on it.

The converse is true, too. If you (the DM) know that the wizard wears bracers with a death ward effect, NPCs should still target him with slay living and other Fort-save [Death] effects. It would be cheating if those enemies always targeted the party rogue instead, unless they had found out about the item in game.

When they came to the end Mind Flayer I did my normal thing (try to destroy the party). The BBEG had a TPK in 3 rounds. Everybody was stunned, and the MF could do his instant kill attacks before the stun wore off.

Are you exaggerating, or do you literally mean they were all dead in round 3? If the latter, you may have played something incorrectly.

Round 1, stun most of the party. Round 2, stun the rest. Round 3, he gets to kill off one PC-- assuming he's within reach. How did the rest of them end up dead so quickly?

 

[Chainsaw Mage]

A TPK at a convention, using pre-generated characters, is fun. A TPK at a regular D&D "home" session, using PCs created by the players, is the exact opposite of fun (unless you're playing Call of Cthulhu). Why would you or your players want to play a game that wasn't fun?

So knowing your character will never die is fun?

Why not just watch a movie, then?

 

[Chainsaw Mage]

I voted for "It's low, but I'd still play" simply because I firmly believe that a TPK (unless it's early in the campaign) is typically the fault of the GM - he misjudged the playing abilities/character strengths/monster strengths of the encounter, and the whole party suffered as a result.

Uh, or maybe the monsters, you know, won the fight. If the PCs are killed it isn't always someone's *fault*. Maybe the monsters, like, defeated them.