I'm back - sort of

[TerraDave]

Open Design (the Kobold Quarterly people) also have some very good 4E products.

 

[KarinsDad]

Actually it is not so difficult due to maths or details, the main advantage of CB is that you have everything at hand. But if you don't have to make an high-level PC from scratch (i.e. you start at low levels and normally level-up) then the amount of work at each level is pretty low.

I tend to disagree.

As levels increase and more abilities and items are acquired, it's easy to miss things.

For example, that Weapon Focus that went from +1 damage to +2 damage at level 11. Weapon Focus isn't one of the nearly acquired abilities, so the player doesn't think to go back and check it.

Or, one power gets a given bonus and another doesn't. The player accidently gives the same bonus to both powers. And every few levels, another power is gained. A new weapon does D8 on criticals instead of D6. The next new weapon acquired goes back to doing D6 on criticals.

As long as a player makes no mistakes as he goes up levels, he's ok.

But, it isn't that hard to make a mistake now and then.

There are players who would be due diligent about this, but if there are 5 players and a DM, the likelihood of some of the players making mistakes is fairly high.

The likelihood of players making mistakes via a good software tool are fairly low.

4E is so complex that it almost requires a good software tool compared to, for example, 1E or 2E.

 

[TikkchikFenTikktikk]

Hold on, let's make no mistake: Without support WotC will die. 4e will live- as long as you have the books instead of counting on digital offerings.

D&D is fine; the publisher of D&D is the one in trouble. Yes, I like having new stuff to blow my money on for my game- but even without it, the game still exists.

WotC is not in trouble. Magic: the Gathering has never been more popular in paper form. My understanding is that Magic Online has basically recovered from the v3 fiasco and is printing money. The console game is hugely popular. Also, Duel Masters is also very successul in Southeast Asian markets. CCGs will keep the company alive for a long time to come.

Don't forget they also have a genre fiction group and the Avalon Hill boardgame group.

I'm sure the fiction publishing is hurting with the rest of the publishing industry (none of their books are in the top 100 on Amazon's Fantasy bestseller list as I write this), but they're still putting out more pulp each month than they are 4E supplements. They have also made the move to publishing their fiction as ebooks.

Avalon Hill's limited product line up is doing OK, I'd guess. I'm not as familiar with how this group has been selling. It's line has been pared back and there are very few new releases, but it's almost all acknowledged classics with quality production that is rivaled only by Fantasy Flight's ridiculously gorgeous products. It's my understanding that the naval warfare CMG published by that group is hugely popular amongst grognards who get into that sort of thing and Wizards is able to maintain it with very limited resources. Two of the Axis & Allies products are in the Top 25 of Amazon's strategy boardgame list, with a Heroscape product above them, and several more products in the top 100; therefore my guess this group is doing OK.

So while the problems with 4E seem pretty bad and its death would be a terrible, terrible thing it is not a thing that will kill the company.

 

[Dannager]

First off, I'm not playing their game currently, but am strongly considering coming back to it. I do prefer their game, however they HAVE increased their price on DDI while at the same time delivering less than they used to and considerably less than promised.

Really? Less than they used to? Since launch they've released and made upgrades to the Character Builder and Monster Builder, and have added content on a monthly basis to the Compendium.

At launch, you had access to the content of a handful of books through DDI. Now you have access to dozens, as well as two very nice apps, and they upped the price by a couple bucks.

Is this really your argument? That DDI is less worthwhile than it was right after launch when you quit?

 

[Dannager]

As for the product existing, they said that before too, but the product never came to fruition. You are probably right, but until I see a functioning VTT, I won't believe WOTC. They do have a history of saying they are going to release stuff online that never hits.

Okay, you can doubt WotC word all you want, but are you going to doubt the word of all the ENWorld forumers who have actually played games with the new VTT? I mean, I've actually had it running on my computer.

 

[Dice4Hire]

4E is so complex that it almost requires a good software tool compared to, for example, 1E or 2E.

Simply Hogwash.

On one hand, if the player does not pay attention enough, there will be errors completely of the player's making.
They should be more careful and pay more attention.

On the other hand, who cares about a few minor errors? If there is a plus one here or there, or a d8 instead of a d6 it will not break the game.

But finally, if my players cannot make a 4E character without DDI, I would really question their ability to handle the rules of the game. It really is not that hard to make a character.

Playing a 4E character is a lot harder, and DDI helps not a bit with that. But htat is a different topic.

 

[Cryndo]

Really? Less than they used to? Since launch they've released and made upgrades to the Character Builder and Monster Builder, and have added content on a monthly basis to the Compendium.

At launch, you had access to the content of a handful of books through DDI. Now you have access to dozens, as well as two very nice apps, and they upped the price by a couple bucks.

Is this really your argument? That DDI is less worthwhile than it was right after launch when you quit?

Well, all of that stuff was promised from the beginning. We STILL don't have everything they said we'd have. The CB and MB are both worse since they changed them. The amount of new releases has decreased considerably in the magazines. I subscribed to DDI originally BASED on the promised apps to shortly come. So, yes DDI is less valuable that what was promised to me when I signed up and I get to pay more for it.

 

[Cryndo]

Okay, you can doubt WotC word all you want, but are you going to doubt the word of all the ENWorld forumers who have actually played games with the new VTT? I mean, I've actually had it running on my computer.

Can you run it right now? I heard there were "bugs" again. If you can't run it right now then it doesn't exist. Some version of VTT apparently did exist although I heard the quality was pretty lame.

 

[DEFCON 1]

A bit harsh and ill-conceived on your part. Talk about getting crap off you chest so you can rail on a messageboard, what did you just do? I was soliciting ideas and actually got some good help - but not from you.

I'm just passing on the same advice I always do to people who can't make up their minds. Either you want to play 4E or you don't. What the company itself does should have no impact on that decision whatsoever.

First off, I'm not playing their game currently, but am strongly considering coming back to it. I do prefer their game, however they HAVE increased their price on DDI while at the same time delivering less than they used to and considerably less than promised.

If you want to play it, great! Get a group together and play it. But don't use the excuse that you don't like what the company that produces the game is doing to be your deciding factor, because in my opinion that IS stupid. The game is the game. Either you want to play it, or you don't.

And I'd say the same thing to someone who (for example) ordinarily would read a particular comic or book except that they don't like the author's politics. You know what? Nobody is EVER going to match what you are looking for point-for-point, so unless you don't intend to buy/read/play/engage anything ever again, get over it. Enjoy the item you enjoy and stop wasting time worrying about all the extraneous stuff. Because I guarantee you, the game company, author, publisher etc. etc. isn't doing what they're doing to make you happy. They care about the "readership", not "Cryndo".

Second, as a DM with a family and a full-time job, I don't have time for world building and adventure creation, so I would have to use supplements. WOTC has limited my options in this regard compared to 3E-3.5. Additionally, I'm not sure most of my players could make a character without CB.

Then don't play it then. If you don't want to use Wizards of the Coast products because you don't like their policies... then man up and don't use ANY part of the 4E game. But don't be all wishy-washy and only play the baseline 4E because you really like the system, but then go trawling around for non-WotC supplements because that way you can feel as though you're not really supporting the company.

Guess what? If you're playing 4E... you're supporting Wizards of the Coast. No ifs, ands, or buts. You are doing your part to keep THEIR game active, and inspiring YOUR players to enjoy their game, and thus perhaps inspire them to buy some WotC products themselves. It might be small support, but it's support nonetheless. And if you can't get as far as "no support"... then after that point it doesn't matter how much or how little support you give them. So get over it and play the game with as much or as little 4E stuff as you like, because it's a good and fun game. I would applaud you for that.

Third, the post did help me. I was reminded that I could run War of the Burning Sky without needing to buy Wizards products. That is the kind of help I'm looking for. I was reminded that although my options are limited in 4E, there are still some out there.

Sorry I didn't help you. But not every post made in this thread was going to do that. But if you post looking for suggestions, you have to be prepared to get them on all sides of an issue.

 

[aurance]

4E is so complex that it almost requires a good software tool compared to, for example, 1E or 2E.

Complex compared to most of 1e or 2e? Probably. Requires a good software tool? Not so much.