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D&D 5E I'm *GASP* Actually Going to Be Playing 5e in a Few Weeks -- What are the Character Creation Pitfalls to Avoid?

Jabborwacky

First Post
Both are very true.

I guess about the first one... I guess that is the "real trap" in 5e - assume that things didn't really change from older editions and pick something only to find out that it doesn't quite play the same anymore.

For example, in 3e the barbarian was a bit of a glass canon - it had more HP yes, but his/her AC wasn't great and the drop of con when the rage ended was a dangerous mechanism (it could literally kill your PC). In 5e the barbarian is immensely resilient - if you want to play a "tank" it is *the* class to pick. But if you think 3e you would avoid it.

Sometimes I look at my own advice and say "what have I done." :p

Giving advice on this sort of stuff almost always ends up being misleading in some way because there are two competing frames of reference in D&D about how characters should be built. One says that players should choose the mechanics that work best and try to make a character out of it, while the other camp comes from the opposite direction. I'm in the second camp. The mechanics are important, but they're also not really meant to restrict actions like the logic built into D&D's digital brethren. They're strong guidelines, but if a player wants to play a halfling storytelling duelist who uses his talents in acting to entertain his friends and confuse his enemies, it becomes more about finding the answer to the question of how do I represent this character in the game?
 

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Tony Vargas

Legend
I see no class that is useless out of combat in 5th edition. Some might be better, but none are useless.
Choice of class won't make you useless out of combat, because you still have 6 stats and a Background, and those will be of some use out of combat. But there's a sub-class or two that won't much improve upon that baseline.

Yeah, it's hard to find a "trap" option...but the more I look at it, the more that was true in 4e too; one group had a sentinel and another a runepriest as their main leader-role and they did just fine. 3e was basically like this as well.
4e didn't have trap options because it was balanced on a mechanical level. 3e most certainly did, otherwise it wouldn't have rewarded system mastery to the degree that it did. 5e doesn't really have trap options because, ultimately, you don't get to use mechanical choices you make at chargen & level up to dictate to the DM how effective your character is going to be. Now, getting on the DM's bad side, that's a trap option.
 

Jabborwacky

First Post
Choice of class won't make you useless out of combat, because you still have 6 stats and a Background, and those will be of some use out of combat. But there's a sub-class or two that won't much improve upon that baseline.

4e didn't have trap options because it was balanced on a mechanical level. 3e most certainly did, otherwise it wouldn't have rewarded system mastery to the degree that it did. 5e doesn't really have trap options because, ultimately, you don't get to use mechanical choices you make at chargen & level up to dictate to the DM how effective your character is going to be. Now, getting on the DM's bad side, that's a trap option.

Falling out of favor with a DM is a whole other ball park. Can't do anything against that except find a new group, sadly. :(
 

happyhermit

Adventurer
...

4e didn't have trap options because it was balanced on a mechanical level. ...

I tried to think of a way to see this, but I just have to disagree. It is possible to define away everything as "not really a trap" and I can go along with that, but 4e's mechanical balance did not do this. It is hard to not conclude that while "bounded accuracy" reduces the chance of building a largely ineffectual character, 4e's level based number inflation system does the opposite.

In 4e, not boosting your primary stats, particularly your attack stat could make you extremely bad in the system that 4e utilized. Without increasing your abilities, achieving the numbers required to perform basic tasks could become extremely difficult. Trying to do something that happened to rely on another stat was largely ineffectual.

Playing a fighter with a bow made you a really bad archer, compared to a ranger. Of course the argument is "well don't do that" which could be easily followed by " because it's a trap". It is not obvious to someone unfamiliar with 4e that playing a fighter with a bow would be a bad idea, so they could easily make that decision, heck fighters were even proficient with bows.

By comparison in 5e a player that chooses to put less points into their abilities, or utilize a non-standard weapon (that they are proficient in), or not taking the feat that lets them do something with some other stat, is going to be much more effective than a player in 4e that makes those decisions. There are many similar examples.

Making character classes that are balanced with each other doesn't preclude "trap options" or character building choices that leads to a character that can't do much of anything. This is probably why "optimizers" had a lot more fun with 4e, the "rewards" of choosing optimally versus sub-optimally were much greater.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
COROLLARY:
  • If you can't identify one primary attack stat, you may have MAD (Multiple Ability Disorder). This usually means you are some kind of warrior/spellcaster hybrid. Playing such a class is more complicated than regular classes and can hold pitfalls for new players. Examples include Valor Bards (Str+Cha or Dex+Cha), Tempest and War Clerics (Str+Wis), and Blade Pact Warlocks (Str+Cha or Dex+Cha).
Nah, that just means you're still learning to minmax.

Pick your style and stick to it:

1) using weapons primarily and using spells to supplement and buff that choice, choosing spells that doesn't rely on a high DC)

2) Using spells first, and being a defensive tank that only waves a weapon around as your fallback option.

Then, in the second half of the game, AFTER you've maxxed out your primary mode, you can backfill the second choice, making you end up an epic master of everything
 

Imaro

Legend
5e doesn't really have trap options because, ultimately, you don't get to use mechanical choices you make at chargen & level up to dictate to the DM how effective your character is going to be. Now, getting on the DM's bad side, that's a trap option.

I'm confused by this... what edition of D&D allows a player to "dictate" to the DM how effective their character is going to be through mechanical choices you make at chargen & level up?
 


Imaro

Legend
Duh... 4e, of course...

Lol... my next question would be... How?

[sarcasm]I love that 4e can somehow encompass design ethos that are totally opposite each other depending on the particular criticisms leveled at it.[sarcasm off]

4e allows players to dictate their effectiveness to the DM through mechanical choices you make at char gen & level up...
4e is no less empowering to the DM then any other edition when it comes to being able to modify and house rule the game...

Hell-No-Meme-Face-17.jpg
 
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Tony Vargas

Legend
I tried to think of a way to see this, but I just have to disagree. It is possible to define away everything as "not really a trap" and I can go along with that, but 4e's mechanical balance did not do this.
On the contrary, that's rather the point of mechanical balance. You have a lot of choices, they're quite different, but they're all viable.
But, like 3e rewarding system mastery, that was just an aside, the point is that in 5e the DM can (and probably should) impose balance, just of an entirely different order. Short of 'gaming the DM' (or getting on his bad side) the player can't really screw up that kind of balance - thus, "no traps."
It is hard to not conclude that while "bounded accuracy" reduces the chance of building a largely ineffectual character, 4e's level based number inflation system does the opposite.
And easy conclusion to jump to, but not valid. The key difference is that the 4e treadmill was across the board. A PC who didn't particularly specialize in a skill still got better at it through the hard-knocks school of adventuring, so could always take a shot. A specialist could be /really/ good, even a little more so than the 12 point spread possible in 5e, though that increases to 18 w/Expertise. (Contrast 4e/5e with 3.5 and potential 23 point spread from ranks alone - and +20 items.)

In 4e, not boosting your primary stats, particularly your attack stat
Is not something you'd contemplate doing, ironically, /unless/ you were an optimizer. It's not like you'd do well dumping your prime requisite in any edition (though, ironically, I've seen a 5e wizard get away with it, that was an odd case at low level).
Playing a fighter with a bow made you a really bad archer, compared to a ranger.
Also just silly. (I get that it was a source of disequilibrium for long-time players, but if you just glance at the fighter class with an open mind, you'd never think to build one as an archer, while the Ranger had a build that was exactly that.) No 'system mastery' required, default builds and examples made it painfully obvious. It'd be easier to make the mistake of arming your high-STR fighter with a bow instead of a javelin in 5e (because you need to paruse the weapons table), than to expect a 4e fighter to be an archer, because the presentation is just that much clearer.
Making character classes that are balanced with each other doesn't preclude "trap options"
It does, on a very basic level. You can play to concept and not automatically taking a hit to versatility/power or be channeled into an unwanted style to remain effective. Of course, that means starting with a concept.
This is probably why "optimizers" had a lot more fun with 4e, the "rewards" of choosing optimally versus sub-optimally were much greater.
Rewards for optimization in 4e were pretty slight compared to 3.x, the nature of a balanced system. But optimization could still get you the exact build you wanted, just not a broken one. There's two sides to the powergaming coin, there's broken builds, but there's also viable builds to concept.
3e or 4e, you built a character, you had a very good idea what it could do. Optimizers liked that, whether they were being lavishly over-rewarded or working on razor thin margins.


I'm confused by this... what edition of D&D allows a player to "dictate" to the DM how effective their character is going to be through mechanical choices you make at chargen & level up?
3e & 4e, certainly. The 'player empowering' editions. Especially if the DM was taken in by the 3.x RAW zeitgeist.

my next question would be... How?
Player picks a class, feats, weapons, spells, makes/buys/ items, etc, and what they do, how they stack up, and how crazy-broken they all turn out to be are all a function of 'RAW.' The DM can 'house rule' (shame! horror!) or pull out the banhammer, but the player had a lot of control over what his character was & could do - and not entirely 'within reason.'

3.5 was the height of the phenomenon (4e balance muted the effects), but it was even true further back, though to an increasingly lesser extent. 2e 'Player Option' supplements opened up some stuff along those lines. Before that, there was always spell choice, spells being a fairly push-button way of evoking specific results for the player.

Of course, the DM could always respond by ratcheting up the challenges faced, even if he wasn't willing to challenge the RAW, thus pushing relative effectiveness back down.

5e is, if anything, less that way, even than later 2e. Players have choices but, what those choices translate to the PC actually being able to do is very much a matter of DM rulings. Some choices, like spells and class features, are more clearly defined than others, like ability & skill checks, but they're all mere rules subject to the DM rulings.

It's funny, because it's like "nothing has changed, but everything has," just on a matter of clarity, emphasis, and attitude. In reality, a 2e DM could have run strictly 'by the book' or a 3e/4e DM could have over-ridden the rules constantly. Nothing could have stopped them in either case. But they'd've been bucking the trend and common wisdom of the day. By the same token, a 5e DM could empower the heck out of his players with clear house-rules/rulings all clearly spelled out, even irrevocably documented ahead of time, and stick to them no matter what combos they came up with.
 
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