I'm sick of Kickstarters

[Parmandur]

So you bought the content, and then the creator gets money? I thought Kickstarter worked by you paying, and then maybe you get the content sometime later.

Depends; sometimes early PDFs and such are available quickly, but it is in essence usually pre-ordering something they need the money to make.

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[Parmandur]

I agree, and I'm kicking myself for this very reason. I realize now that I should have done a Kickstarter for my product, for the simple fact that it would have had more visibility. Unfortunately for me, I don't like ripping people off.

How is advertising and taking orders "ripping people off" in any meaningful sense of the term?

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[Lorrdyn]

Many times, to get production costs covered, they do need Kickstarter to pay the printers and such; nothing immoral about it at all, that's absurd.

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So why couldn't they use the money from their previous titles to cover that cost? Also, the way this worked throughout history was for investors to lend money, so they would see a return. I understand the mentality of a backer, it is instead of getting money back from the investment, you will get content back. My point is not that EVERY Kickstarter is immoral, it is that the big companies are just using it to make more money from you.

 

[Lorrdyn]

How is advertising and taking orders "ripping people off" in any meaningful sense of the term?

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So I don't need money to cover the costs. I did all of the artwork myself, I did all of the design, layout, etc - everything myself. The only cost I had was the ISBN. What cost do I have to account for by making a Kickstarter? If the point of Kickstarter was to advertise and take orders, then I wouldn't be ripping people off, but the point is to crowdfund the costs of publishing. I chose instead to offer the title as Pay What You Want, so you can get the product for free, and if you like it contribute to the print release. Obviusly a poor business decision in hindsight, I should've done a Kickstarter. I could've got extra money, and more advertising. But like I said, to me it doesn't feel morally acceptable.

 

[Morrus]

So why couldn't they use the money from their previous titles to cover that cost?

Because they don't want to, and what they do with their profits (if any) is their own business. Most Kickstarters don't really make a profit anyway - the funds pay for fulfilment of the rewards. They'd have to make twice as much to fund an entire extra product out of it - it would be a Kickstarter for two products, instead of one. Others plough the money back into the business (see Monte Cook Games) which managed to launch a small company off of it and produce a whole line of products. This was good.

Also, the way this worked throughout history was for investors to lend money, so they would see a return.

The world is changing, my friend. The traditional barriers and gatekeepers are falling away.

My point is not that EVERY Kickstarter is immoral, it is that the big companies are just using it to make more money from you.

Which big RPG companies are we talking about here? I mean, there aren't exactly many big RPG companies... for many of the reasons just specified.

 

[Parmandur]

So why couldn't they use the money from their previous titles to cover that cost? Also, the way this worked throughout history was for investors to lend money, so they would see a return. I understand the mentality of a backer, it is instead of getting money back from the investment, you will get content back. My point is not that EVERY Kickstarter is immoral, it is that the big companies are just using it to make more money from you.

Goodman Games, Kobold Press and such are not "big companies," they are rinky-dink shoestring operations. Most profits from previous projects have mostly gone into payroll and rent, not enough to move forwards with bigger projects they have envisioned; hence, stirring up interest with their core customers and trying to get new customers in the mix. Nothing about this is immoral in any moral system I am familiar with; please elaborate on your ethical viewpoint?

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[Morrus]

So I don't need money to cover the costs. I did all of the artwork myself, I did all of the design, layout, etc - everything myself. The only cost I had was the ISBN. What cost do I have to account for by making a Kickstarter?

So don't run a Kickstarter then. Nobody is saying you have to.

I chose instead to offer the title as Pay What You Want, so you can get the product for free, and if you like it contribute to the print release. Obviusly a poor business decision in hindsight, I should've done a Kickstarter. I could've got extra money, and more advertising.

Ah, now we get to the nub of your issue with Kickstarter. Some people are succeeding where you did not?

There's an important thing somebody wise once told me: somebody else's success does not take away from you. There is no profit in feeling bitter about it; somebody will always be doing better than you, no matter how well you do. Just keep trying to do your thing, and enjoy your successes on their own merits.

 

[Lorrdyn]

So don't run a Kickstarter then. Nobody is saying you have to.



Ah, now we get to the nub of your issue with Kickstarter. Some people are succeeding where you did not?

There's an important thing somebody wise once told me: somebody else's success does not take away from you. There is no profit in feeling bitter about it; somebody will always be doing better than you, no matter how well you do. Just keep trying to do your thing, and enjoy your successes on their own merits.

I think you are misinterpreting what I am saying. Firstly, I had issues with Kickstarter long before I even started my project, so there should be no correlation between my success and someone else's. If anything, I am conceding to your previous points by saying that I should have done Kickstarter. I am not bitter against Kickstarter successes. I am glad for them. I simply couldn't bring myself to do it myself for ethical reasons. I felt that it was just a way to make more money from people. I understand and agree with your points about small businesses and projects needing Kickstarter, I get it. I personally won't ever back a Kickstarter, for the same reason I won't buy an Early Access video game. But you guys really think that every company running a Kickstarter doesn't have profit on their mind? You really think that Kickstarter is ONLY to cover the expenses of publishing? I don't mean to be rude, but that is naive to trust a capitalist system in such a way.

 

[Morrus]

I think you are misinterpreting what I am saying. Firstly, I had issues with Kickstarter long before I even started my project, so there should be no correlation between my success and someone else's. If anything, I am conceding to your previous points by saying that I should have done Kickstarter. I am not bitter against Kickstarter successes. I am glad for them. I simply couldn't bring myself to do it myself for ethical reasons. I felt that it was just a way to make more money from people. I understand and agree with your points about small businesses and projects needing Kickstarter, I get it. I personally won't ever back a Kickstarter, for the same reason I won't buy an Early Access video game. But you guys really think that every company running a Kickstarter doesn't have profit on their mind? You really think that Kickstarter is ONLY to cover the expenses of publishing? I don't mean to be rude, but that is naive to trust a capitalist system in such a way.

Only if you think profit is evil. For many of us, "profit" is what puts food on the table. It's our job. We're in the business of selling roleplaying games. And we get paid to do our job.

 

[Parmandur]

So I don't need money to cover the costs. I did all of the artwork myself, I did all of the design, layout, etc - everything myself. The only cost I had was the ISBN. What cost do I have to account for by making a Kickstarter? If the point of Kickstarter was to advertise and take orders, then I wouldn't be ripping people off, but the point is to crowdfund the costs of publishing. I chose instead to offer the title as Pay What You Want, so you can get the product for free, and if you like it contribute to the print release. Obviusly a poor business decision in hindsight, I should've done a Kickstarter. I could've got extra money, and more advertising. But like I said, to me it doesn't feel morally acceptable.

Morality is about more than feelings: please, explain your ethical framework l, as I cannot fathom how asking people for money in return for something they want can be construed as immoral.

As to costs: if you did a Kick starter, it would be for printing and shipping: and yeah, personnel salary is part of the costs too, so paying yourself for your labor is legitimate. There is no moral obligation to not take a paycheck from your work?

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