Immortality by 12th Level?!?!?!

[Sejs]

As being an undead creature, like Lichdom and Vampirism, is also a curse, not a benefit.

So, lichdom is a curse that the afflicted party has to really go out of their way and bust hump to attain? Most other forms of undead I'm with you on - they can be forced upon you and such, but lichdom is a choice.

 

[Atavar]

Whoah. Gazillion characters have died from lack of timely magical healing. Compare that number (gazillion) to the number of characters who've died of old age. There you have it. The relative importance of longevity.

Do you also think that Elves are broken because they live so long?

No, I don't think elves are broken. Their longevity (or that of any other race) isn't my point.

I also think that that the "more characters die from adventuring than from old age, so it makes no difference" argument is purely a metagame, crunch argument. I've already ceded that, from a game mechanics perspective, the incantifier's immortality class feature does not seem broken.

My point (at this point) is to point out how broken it is from an in-game, character (rather than player), non-metagame (fluff?) perspective. Does anyone really think that the average character (in-game) think's, "Eh, I'll probably die adventuring, so why bother seeking immortality?" In my opinion, most characters with any chance of qualifying would be lining up (as another poster termed it) for this relatively easy path to living forever.

I do agree, though, that the costs in GP and XP, as well as the requirement to get a very paranoid incantifier to take you through the process, help mitigate the broken fluff aspects of it. Mitigate, but not even close to eliminate.

Broken crunch? No.

Broken fluff? Absolutely.

Thanks,

Atavar

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"The future is much like the present, only longer." - Don Quisenberry

 

[Endur]

So, lichdom is a curse that the afflicted party has to really go out of their way and bust hump to attain? Most other forms of undead I'm with you on - they can be forced upon you and such, but lichdom is a choice.

Think of Lichdom as like being a junkie, addicted to a drug.

The would-be-Lich will do anything to achieve immortality, violating any law, doing any perversion, and loses all humanity and willingly transforms himself or herself into an undead creature. With all the consequences of being undead.

In White Wolf terms, the would be Lich essentially has a humanity rating of 0. The Lich has forsaken all humanity to become an eternal undead creature.

Sure, the Lich may have powerful spellcasting. But its not really alive, and it does not have the pleasures of immortality that it sought.

Rational people would not willingly desire to become one of Sauron's ringwraiths or a mummy in an Egyptian Tomb if they fully understood the consequences of their actions.

 

[Sejs]

Think of Lichdom as like being a junkie, addicted to a drug.

The would-be-Lich will do anything to achieve immortality, violating any law, doing any perversion, and loses all humanity and willingly transforms himself or herself into an undead creature. With all the consequences of being undead.

In White Wolf terms, the would be Lich essentially has a humanity rating of 0. The Lich has forsaken all humanity to become an eternal undead creature.

Sure, the Lich may have powerful spellcasting. But its not really alive, and it does not have the pleasures of immortality that it sought.

Rational people would not willingly desire to become one of Sauron's ringwraiths or a mummy in an Egyptian Tomb if they fully understood the consequences of their actions.

That's an interesting angle on it, Endur, and one I hadn't thought of - thank you.

I particularly like the White Wolf analogy, and actually might take it a step further. Remember that whole thing the Sabbat has going for them? Paths? Like that. It seems quite fitting, the more I think about it.

A lich, lacking in any moral compass or empathy now that they've made the transition and removed their soul for safekeeping, adopting an artificially constructed morality to compensate for their newfound shortcomings in judgement.

The Path of Power and the Inner Voice seems particularly appropriate.

 

[Sejs]

(snip)

The issue of broken fluff is ultimatly a campaign-to-campaign, dm-to-dm one. If you want to examine things from a 'how would they affect the campaign world' standpoint, there are a lot of thing to considder.

Let's start small, for example:

The Prestidigitation spell completely undermines many of the service industries as well as spice trades.

And that's just a cantrip.

Another?

The presence of divine magic confirms faith. Theocratic government would be the standard rule because you know that they have God on their side. Improper judgements can and would be sidestepped via use of Augury, Divination, and Commune spells. A popular church-body would be an unstoppable jugernaut and inexpliciably tied in on all levels of society.

Another?

The bardic abilities Fascinate and Suggestion would lead to an inherrant distrust of musicians and public speakers period, because if you listen to them they can control your mind.

Another?

There is no Elf-Orc animosity because if there was ever a war, the elves would all die out due to the long lifespan and accompaningly slow birth rates. Elves would make damn sure to stay out of the way of any shorter-lived, faster-breeding races because if there's ever a conflict, the elves just can't keep up in the numbers game.

One could go on and on endlessly about these things if they wanted to. Ultimatly you either factor them in to your game, or you choose to ignore them.

As for the Incantifer's fluff being broken from an in-game perspective? Take those prohibitive exp and gold costs, the rarity of the training, and then ask yourself just how many of these guys are there? Enough to have any functional impact on the game as a whole? No. No more than a lich or elan. Heck, a lich would be worse because in addition to them being ageless, you can't kill them permanantly. And it's easier to become a lich, to boot.

Ultimatly it's not that bad. It's just another chit in the pile. In the end I'd say it's less broken from an in-game fluff perspective than many other aspects that have been long standing pillars of the genre, and never seem to get analyzed in this same fashion. Forest for the trees.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

I agree! When I was younger, I knew EVERYTHING. As I grew older, I started to realize that I didn't know nearly as much as I thought. Clearly, this is because my Int was going down, so I wasn't as good at that Knowledge: Everything skill check.

When I was 12, some of the people around me were ignorant, and some were not, to varying degrees.

When I was 20, some of the people around me were ignorant, and some were not, to varying degrees.

Now that I'm 30, some of the people around me are ignorant, and some are not, to varying degrees.

Am I to expect this trend to change? For what reason?

 

[Trickstergod]

Broken fluff? Absolutely.

Not even a little.

Come 9th level, nearly every cleric can raise the dead. Doing so requires a decent chunk of change, but the actual ability itself comes free. Without any need to amass a fortune. With only the barest of requirements to fulfill (Wisdom 15). With no particular need for a mentor or the like.

Sure, you have to heed some gods or ideals will or what not. But bringing back the dead is, relatively speaking, a fairly easy thing to do in D&D.

And I'd equate that ability as being on par with immortality, from a pure fluff stand point. Both equate to mastery over life and death itself, one external, one internal.

Immortality through that prestige class requires a supreme degree of dedication. It requires the attainment of a vast and mighty fortune. And, once attained, maintaining it has a fairly hefty cost - even if it lacks the 2nd edition need to suck up spell levels from month to month, every bruise, every papercut, every ache and pain you have will require a dose of magic to soothe it.

From a non-crunch point of view, nearly no one would have the drive to go for something like that. Sure, anyone who might become a lich may, but that's about it. It roughly equates out to another lich option. From an in-game, stylistic perspective. Lich is kinda icky and nasty, but it does come with the benefit of that nifty phylactory.

So. Stylistically, not really broken as I see it. Very few individuals will care to look into it. Those types that would are exactly the sort who would look to becomes liches, anyway. Those that obsessed with life eternal still might choose lichdom becomes it's slightly more robust, even if you're a dessicated corpse.

Immortality's roughly along the lines of raise dead. The Incantifier's immortality is about on par with lichdom.