Implements

[0bsolete]

I don't think say, a vicious quarterstaff would give a bonus to spells.

A staff is an implement that happens to be long enough that you can thwack somebody upside the head with it, and it will hurt. It was initially a magic staff, and was made to be a magic staff. Despite that, its still hard and thick and hurts when its smacked into your temple. When it is enchanted, it is also harder and stronger. While it was enchanted to cast spells through better, the enchantment still makes it a little better at thwacking somebody upside the head with.

A quarterstaff is a weapon that was made because it is long enough and hard enough to thwack somebody upside the head and make it hurt. It was initially made to thwack somebody upside the head, and nobody ever intended to have it channel a wizards arcane might. It was intended for somebody to pick up and beat somebody else into submission with. Even though its magical, its not an implement. The enchantment does not suddenly give it the ability to channel spells. If it did, then logically, any enchanted item would become an implement. Wave your enchanted lucky undies around and pull off a better fireball.

Think Gandalf smacking somebody with his magic staff. It did damage. Despite that, if you took the walking stick Frodo used and put on an enchantment to make it sturdier, Gandalf couldn't use it to cast spells.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Dude, I'm not interested in random bits of thought, I'm interested in what the rules say.

Wizards can use a staves as implements. Wizards can also use orbs or wands.
A quarterstaff is a staff. Therefore a wizard can use it as an implement.

It's not even questionable that a magic quarterstaff can be used as an implement (and get +1 AC), the debate is specifically about whether the magical bonuses of a quarterstaff enchanted to bash skulls apply to spells.

 

[Samurai]

Dude, I'm not interested in random bits of thought, I'm interested in what the rules say.

Wizards can use a staves as implements. Wizards can also use orbs or wands.
A quarterstaff is a staff. Therefore a wizard can use it as an implement.

It's not even questionable that a magic quarterstaff can be used as an implement (and get +1 AC), the debate is specifically about whether the magical bonuses of a quarterstaff enchanted to bash skulls apply to spells.

IMO, weapon properties on staves affect melee attacks with the staff only, not any spells cast using the staff. However, I think this is something each DM will probably decide for themselves, and there may be some cases where a DM might allow a weapon property to affect a spell.

 

[Danceofmasks]

I absolutely agree .. if a power doesn't have a weapon keyword, you apply neither those properties nor the proficiency bonus to your attacks.

But that's not the issue here .. if a wizard wants to use the enhancement bonus from a frost quarterstaff for his magic missiles, can he?

 

[abyssaldeath]

In the section for magical staves it say that any body that can use a magic staff as normal. They just won't be able to use the staves abilities to enhance you powers if you don't have staff impliment use. For example is says that a cleric would get a staff of fiery mights plus to attack and damage and if he gets a critical the extra dice of fire damage, but not the daily power to enhance powers with the key word fire. So if a cleric can benfic from the enhancement bonus from a magical staff it means the a wizard can use a quarterstaff as an impliment. I think they should have put impliments in with the other weapons to alieviate any confusion.

 

[Danceofmasks]

The problem is, only a wizard can use a staff as an implement.
Let me explain with an analogy.

Let's say a wizard's implement is "something that can sell ice cream."
Let's say weapons are "vehicles."

An orb could then be a milk bar, which is obviously not a vehicle.
A staff would be an ice cream truck, as it can both sell ice cream and is a vehicle.

Now, the question of whether I can use a frost quarterstaff to cast better magic missiles can then be phrased as:
I have a state-of-the-art transmission in my porsche .. does that mean I can charge 20% extra for the ice cream I sell from it?

I say I can, but some people disagree.

 

[abyssaldeath]

I have no idea what you are trying to say with that analogy.

 

[Samurai]

I absolutely agree .. if a power doesn't have a weapon keyword, you apply neither those properties nor the proficiency bonus to your attacks.

But that's not the issue here .. if a wizard wants to use the enhancement bonus from a frost quarterstaff for his magic missiles, can he?

JUST the Enhancement bonus (+2 for example)? Yes, that I'd allow.

I see it this way: Staves have general enhancement bonuses that help whether you use it as a weapon or an Implement. A Wizard can use the Enhancement on a Staff of Frost, and a Fighter can use the Enhancement on a Staff of Winter. Enhancements affect the attack and damage of both melee attacks and spells cast through it.

However, in order to access its Daily powers or properties you need to use the staff for the correct purpose, either in melee or as an Implement. Otherwise, it's no better than an ordinary +2 magic staff for you...

 

[Danceofmasks]

Wizards know how to sell ice cream out of automobiles as well as buildings.
See, an ice cream truck is an automobile, and so is a porsche.
A vicious quarterstaff and a staff of power are both staves.
But only 1 is designed to sell ice cream.

Now, a frost quarterstaff is specifically enchanted to be a weapon, not an implement ...
So some of the folks here have been saying that since the frost quarterstaff doesn't have the necessary arcane markings or what not (i.e. the implement keyword), I can't get the enhancement bonus on spells.

 

[Danceofmasks]

JUST the Enhancement bonus (+2 for example)? Yes, that I'd allow.

Ah, but every enchanted implement also adds damage on critical hits ... so then does a +2 vicious quarterstaff add 2d12 on magic missile criticals?