Improved grab questions

[mostholy2]

According to the description of the Improved Grab feat from the SRD

Improved Grab (Ex): If a creature with this special attack hits with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required. Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text). When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight.

(highlighted sections are parts relating to my questions). I have a few questions about this ability and the mechanics of it.

1) If executing a grapple action following initiation of grappling, the description suggests that on ANY successful grapple check it deals damage (whether by normal damage or normal + constriction damage). Does this mean if the creature decides to take an grapple action other than damage opponent or attack (say "pin" or "move" opponent), it still does damage on a successful grapple check in addition to accomplishing its action?

2) The final sentence of the description suggests that the creature with improved grab can move even while grappled. Does this mean the creature can move its normal movement allowance while grappled as a move action? Or does it mean that it can move only by taking the "move opponent" action (and subsequent successful grapple check) and thus can only move 1/2 it's movement?

 

[Bad Paper]

2) The final sentence of the description suggests that the creature with improved grab can move even while grappled. Does this mean the creature can move its normal movement allowance while grappled as a move action? Or does it mean that it can move only by taking the "move opponent" action (and subsequent successful grapple check) and thus can only move 1/2 it's movement?

I don't know about #1, but I think #2 is at half speed.

 

[Shellman]

I believe a creature can only do damage during a grapple if it has free limbs to use to conduct the attack or if it has a special attack like a huge python snake doing constriction damage.

 

[Infiniti2000]

1) If executing a grapple action following initiation of grappling, the description suggests that on ANY successful grapple check it deals damage (whether by normal damage or normal + constriction damage). Does this mean if the creature decides to take an grapple action other than damage opponent or attack (say "pin" or "move" opponent), it still does damage on a successful grapple check in addition to accomplishing its action?

Yes. Thus the power of improved grab. While holding you and, say, moving you towards a pit of acid, the creature deals damage. With constriction, he deals a lot of damage. But, as you note he must conduct the grapple.

2) The final sentence of the description suggests that the creature with improved grab can move even while grappled. Does this mean the creature can move its normal movement allowance while grappled as a move action? Or does it mean that it can move only by taking the "move opponent" action (and subsequent successful grapple check) and thus can only move 1/2 it's movement?

I'd have to say that he moves at half-speed, just like for anyone else who's grappling. That just says he can move, not that he can move at full speed, overriding the rules on grappling. However, note that a creature without improved grab who uses the -20 option can move at full speed, because he's not considered grappling. This is critical especiially for a flier (like a dragon) with Snatch.

 

[marune]

... However, note that a creature without improved grab who uses the -20 option can move at full speed, because he's not considered grappling. This is critical especiially for a flier (like a dragon) with Snatch.

Why did you say "without improved grab", the same rule doesn't apply to a creature with the Improved Grab ability ?

 

[Infiniti2000]

Why did you say "without improved grab", the same rule doesn't apply to a creature with the Improved Grab ability ?

Ahem. Oops. I meant with, not without. I edited my post above.

Btw, a creature without improved grab cannot choose to take -20 on a grapple and doesn't benefit as above.

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

I believe a creature can only do damage during a grapple if it has free limbs to use to conduct the attack or if it has a special attack like a huge python snake doing constriction damage.

Anyone can do damage during a grapple, by making a successful grapple check on their action.

 

[Prism]

I believe a creature can only do damage during a grapple if it has free limbs to use to conduct the attack or if it has a special attack like a huge python snake doing constriction damage.

Normally a creature without improved grab would simply do non lethal damage based upon their size

A creature with improved grab would do damage as per the attack that established the hold

A creature with improved grab and constrict does damage as per the attack that established the hold, plus constriction damage

All of this is per grapple attempt even though it does seem a bit odd that if said creature uses a grapple attempt to escape the grapple lets say, it still does grapple damage. I believe the intent was to do the damage if the option to deal damage in a grapple is used but as it stands thats not what it says - it says any grapple attempt

 

[Gansk]

Yes. Thus the power of improved grab. While holding you and, say, moving you towards a pit of acid, the creature deals damage. With constriction, he deals a lot of damage. But, as you note he must conduct the grapple.

I think the intent of the description was to increase the damage whenever the creature with Improved Grab used the "damage your opponent" option, not just any successful grapple check. But the RAW is not explicit, and some DM's are dishing out damage when the creature wins a grapple check on defense!

I'd have to say that he moves at half-speed, just like for anyone else who's grappling. That just says he can move, not that he can move at full speed, overriding the rules on grappling. However, note that a creature without improved grab who uses the -20 option can move at full speed, because he's not considered grappling. This is critical especiially for a flier (like a dragon) with Snatch.

I disagree with this interpretation. Creatures with Improved Grab should not need to make a grapple check to move around, with or without the -20. Their movement is limited by encumbrance requirements, however.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I think the intent of the description was to increase the damage whenever the creature with Improved Grab used the "damage your opponent" option, not just any successful grapple check. But the RAW is not explicit, and some DM's are dishing out damage when the creature wins a grapple check on defense!

I see what you mean. I did not read it that way for defense, but I could see that interpretation. I think it's clear to be meant on offensive actions. I'd say that it could be debated.

I disagree with this interpretation. Creatures with Improved Grab should not need to make a grapple check to move around, with or without the -20. Their movement is limited by encumbrance requirements, however.

Without the -20, a creature with improved grab is grappling. Per the grappling rules, he moves only with a successful grapple check. Nothing in the Improved Grab description alleviates that restriction except for the -20 penalty, which would mean he isn't grappling.