Improved Grab

[Trodax]

OK, I'm a bit unsure on how the Improved Grab ability works, and I'd thought I'd check with you knowledgeable folks here. I'll write up how I'm playing it right now, using the Dire Bear from the MM as an example:

If the Dire Bear hits with one of its claw attacks, it may roll a grapple check as a free action (no AoO is provoked). If successful, the Dire Bear is now grappling with its opponent. On its next turn, assuming its victim hasn’t escaped the grapple, it may continue dealing damage. This is resolved by a grapple check (instead of a normal attack roll), and, if successful, deals regular claw damage (2d4+10). The Dire Bear may not use any other attack besides this claw attack (such as its other claw or its bite).

Is that correct?

Furthermore, if the Dire Bear chooses to take a -20 penalty on its grapple check, it is "not considered grappled". What exactly does that mean? I know it then gets to retain its Dex bonus and still threatens adjacent squares, but what about its attack? Does it deal damage in the same way as above, and also get its other attacks?

Help would be much appreciated!

 

[Taloras]

As far as i can recall, the first part is correct, but dont quote me on that.

As for the -20 penalty part, yes. If he takes a -20, hes no longer considered grappled, but his enemy is. And he can take other attacks.

 

[Infiniti2000]

If the Dire Bear hits with one of its claw attacks, it may roll a grapple check as a free action (no AoO is provoked). If successful, the Dire Bear is now grappling with its opponent. On its next turn, assuming its victim hasn’t escaped the grapple, it may continue dealing damage. This is resolved by a grapple check (instead of a normal attack roll), and, if successful, deals regular claw damage (2d4+10). The Dire Bear may not use any other attack besides this claw attack (such as its other claw or its bite).

Is that correct?

You didn't say if the first or second claw attack hit, but the dire bear may continue with its remaining natural weapons, but will take the -4 penalty to hit its opponent because it is grappling (unless it took -20 at which point it doesn't get the -4 penalty and may instead attack anyone within reach). On its next turn, the bear may choose to use grapple checks (with a BAB of +9 it gets two, one at +23 and the next at +18) to deal claw damage or any other grapple action. Or, it could attack three times with its natural weapons, all at -4 (so two claws +14 and the bite +9). Depending on how armored/strong the victim is, one option might be better than another.

 

[werk]

Here's the way that I understand it:

Creature with imp. grab makes a regular melee attack and hits.

They can then choose to start a grapple without an AoO if the opponent is one size larger or less.
- If they make the check with the -20, they move the opponent into their square and are not considered grappled.
- If they make a regular grapple, without the -20, they are in a standard grapple.

If the grapple check is successful they deal constrict damage.

"If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text). "

 

[Trodax]

Thanks for your replies!

On its next turn, the bear may choose to use grapple checks (with a BAB of +9 it gets two, one at +23 and the next at +18) to deal claw damage or any other grapple action. Or, it could attack three times with its natural weapons, all at -4 (so two claws +14 and the bite +9).

Why would it get to attack three times, as with a full attack action? The description of the grapple action "Attack Your Opponent" says:

Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a –4 penalty on such attacks. You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.

Wouldn't this restriction apply also to natural weapons?

 

[Infiniti2000]

Why would it get to attack three times, as with a full attack action? The description of the grapple action "Attack Your Opponent" says:
...
Wouldn't this restriction apply also to natural weapons?

Because you can utilize one of the grappling options, which is "Attack Your Opponent." You get all of your normal attacks (with a light weapon or natural weapon, etc.) but at a -4 penalty.

Note that if the bear wanted to use opposed grapple checks (which he probably would, give his much higher modifier -- particularly if he were grappling a tin can fighter), he would get only two such attacks.

 

[Trodax]

Because you can utilize one of the grappling options, which is "Attack Your Opponent." You get all of your normal attacks (with a light weapon or natural weapon, etc.) but at a -4 penalty.

But wouldn't the "You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons" restrict the Bear to using only one of its natural weapons (so one of its claws or its bite attack)?

Note that if the bear wanted to use opposed grapple checks (which he probably would, give his much higher modifier -- particularly if he were grappling a tin can fighter), he would get only two such attacks.

This part I'm with you 100% on.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Because you can utilize one of the grappling options, which is "Attack Your Opponent." You get all of your normal attacks (with a light weapon or natural weapon, etc.) but at a -4 penalty.

No, you don't.

The "Attack your Opponent" option allows you a single attack.

Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a –4 penalty on such attacks.
You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.

If you have a high enougn BAB, you can take the "Attack your Opponent" option more than once - just keep in mind that you can never gain multiple attacks with a natural weapon due to a high BAB.

There's some disagreement about how this applies in a grapple (i.e., does a BAB +11 creature with three or more natural weapons get to make one attack with each weapon at +11 / +6 / +1, respectively, or just one attack, at +11, total?), but it certainly doesn't follow I2K's interpretation.

At any rate, a creature with Improved Grab (Claw) doesn't need to take the "Attack your Opponent" option unless they wanted to, for instance, bite. Instead, they should take the "Damage your Opponent" option as many times as their BAB allows and do claw damage each success.

 

[blargney the second]

Incidentally, Improved Grab brings the opponent into the grabber's square. This is important when dealing with salamanders standing in a pool of lava.

-blarg

 

[Infiniti2000]

But wouldn't the "You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons" restrict the Bear to using only one of its natural weapons (so one of its claws or its bite attack)?

Attacking with two weapons clearly refers to two-weapon fighting. You can use two-weapon fighting. A creature with multiple natural weapons is not two-weapon fighting. There's a clear distinction in terminology.

The "Attack your Opponent" option allows you a single attack.

No. It only keeps you from using two-weapon fighting.