Improved Toughness - Help?

[the_bruiser]

I've a bunch of money invested in 3.0 stuff and am just now getting around to 3.5. I bought the Complete Warrior's Guide and have a question. Can you take Improved Toughness multiple times / does it stack? I have a player who's been investing in dwarf's toughess, giant's toughness, etc., and wonder if I should let that player convert those feats into this new, improved version. Any thoughts? Is there a specific place in the book or errata/sage ruling on whether this is allowed?

Note: The main question is whether it's legal to take it multiple times - I can decide whether to allow retro-fit on my own .

Thanks for any help you can provide!

EDIT: subscribed to thread.

 

[Caliban]

I've a bunch of money invested in 3.0 stuff and am just now getting around to 3.5. I bought the Complete Warrior's Guide and have a question. Can you take Improved Toughness multiple times / does it stack? I have a player who's been investing in dwarf's toughess, giant's toughness, etc., and wonder if I should let that player convert those feats into this new, improved version. Any thoughts? Is there a specific place in the book or errata/sage ruling on whether this is allowed?

Note: The main question is whether it's legal to take it multiple times - I can decide whether to allow retro-fit on my own .

Thanks for any help you can provide!

EDIT: subscribed to thread.

No, you can't take a feat multiple times unless the feat itself specifically says so (as the normal Toughness feat does).

 

[the_bruiser]

No, you can't take a feat multiple times unless the feat itself specifically says so (as the normal Toughness feat does).

Ah, okay, thanks. So you can take toughness and dwarf/giant/dragon toughness all multiple times, but not this one. I guess I'd just gotten used to all the others specifically *saying* you could take them multiple times. BAD DM! BAD DM!

So I'll let the character retro-fit one of the bunch, but leave the rest the same, and not allow any incremental uses of this one. Everyone agree?

 

[Chronosome]

That's the way I'd do it.

 

[Caliban]

Ah, okay, thanks. So you can take toughness and dwarf/giant/dragon toughness all multiple times, but not this one. I guess I'd just gotten used to all the others specifically *saying* you could take them multiple times. BAD DM! BAD DM!

So I'll let the character retro-fit one of the bunch, but leave the rest the same, and not allow any incremental uses of this one. Everyone agree?

That certainly works, but I think that Improved Toughness is intended to be a replacement for all the MoTW Toughness feats. MoTW is 3.0, CW is 3.5.

 

[Wolffenjugend]

I agree with Caliban. I think Improved Toughness was a way to do away with having to take multiple feats to gain hp.

 

[the_bruiser]

That certainly works, but I think that Improved Toughness is intended to be a replacement for all the MoTW Toughness feats. MoTW is 3.0, CW is 3.5.

Interesting. As I said (?) in my post, I'm now de-converting 3.5 stuff into 3.0. I have a player who views his character as a HP-sink - he's proud of having a huge number of hit points, and doesn't mind having sunk 3 feats into each of the others to get 27 HP (6+9+12). So ruling it the way you say would reduce that 27 to 12 (we're 12th level) and give him 2 more feats - an exchange that he wouldn't view as a bonus.

I'm not sure what to do. I'm reluctant to remove the ability to devote many feats to HP gains for those who wish to do so.

So should I (i) allow one to be retro-fit, (ii) allow one future feat to be Improved Toughness, (iii) not allow the IT feat given the previous use of the other feats, or (iv) insist that the previous three feats be converted into IT and two new feats be taken?

(I'm kind of reluctant to do option number four.)

 

[Tessarael]

[..] ruling it the way you say would reduce that 27 to 12 (we're 12th level) and give him 2 more feats - an exchange that he wouldn't view as a bonus.

I'm not sure what to do. I'm reluctant to remove the ability to devote many feats to HP gains for those who wish to do so. [..]

As far as I can see, the aim with Improved Toughness in Complete Warrior is to create a good Toughness feat that scales with character level. (Same sort of thing they tried to do with Dwarven Toughness through to Dragon Toughness feats - but awkwardly.)

I would let the PC take Toughness and Improved Toughness. If he wants more HP than that, get an item that adds to CON. Feats are hard to come by. Investing so many feats in HP is a poor choice for many combat situations.

I would suggest that you look at the character, and maybe suggest a couple of ways those extra feats could be put to better use. e.g. Dodge and Expertise for example - help those high HP not be reduced by being hit as often. Weapon Focus/Weapon Specialization/Improved Critical/Greater Weapon Focus/Greater Weapon Specialization are very good choices for Fighter, and if that's already been done in one weapon, do it in a missile (or melee) weapon as well, so the character is great both in and out of melee.

 

[Wolffenjugend]

I see no problem with giving the player what he wants (in this situation). I would IMC. If he wants to blow all his feats on hp, fine - it's his character. Let him pick and choose from the hp feats he has now and the Improved Toughness feat (maybe he'll drop one of the old feats and add IT).

You have to take into account the fact that IT wasn't around when the guy made his character; if it was, he might have taken it. So just let him retrofit his character to add IT and/or keep the MotW feats. None of it seems overpowered to me. I think it's kinda counterproductive to prevent the guy from switching feats simply b/c the feat didn't exist when he made the original choice.

IMC, I allow players to switch weapon focus and weapon specialization after a little practive with the new weapon. Why? Because life's too short to sweat the small stuff and it makes for a campaign that's more fun. And that's the whole point of the game - not analyzing the rules to death.

 

[Darklone]

In the last discussion some people voted for houseruling Imp Toughness to stack with itself... it doesn't look too be too strong (as a general feat, not a fighter bonus feat though).