Improved Trip & TWF

[Nyarlathotep]

Good evening everyone!

I have a rules question that I'd like some input on.

One of the player characters in my campaign is a rogue/fighter with the Improved Trip Feat and the Two-Weapon Fighting Feat. This character usually uses a Longsword/Shortsword in combat. One of the questions that constantly comes up is whether or not he can also use the Improved Trip feat while dual wielding.

The pertinent rules seem to be:

Improved Trip

[sblock]Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise.

Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed. You also gain a +4 bonus on your Strength check to trip your opponent.

If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.
[/sblock]
Unarmed Strike (From the combat chapter of the PHB)

[sblock]Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:

Attacks of Opportunity: Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed. The attack of opportunity comes before your attack. An unarmed attack does not provoke attacks of opportunity from other foes nor does it provoke an attack of opportunity from an unarmed foe.

An unarmed character can’t take attacks of opportunity (but see “Armed” Unarmed Attacks, below).

“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character’s or creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed. Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity)

Unarmed Strike Damage: An unarmed strike from a Medium character deals 1d3 points of damage (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). A Small characterÂ’s unarmed strike deals 1d2 points of damage, while a Large characterÂ’s unarmed strike deals 1d4 points of damage. All damage from unarmed strikes is nonlethal damage. Unarmed strikes count as light weapons (for purposes of two-weapon attack penalties and so on).[/sblock]

Unarmed Attack (from the Glossary in PHB)
[sblock]
A melee attack made with no weapon in hand.[/sblock]

Currently, I've been ruling that the PC can attack as per normal with TWF. If he desires he can trade one of his attacks for an Unarmed Trip attempt (basically hooking a leg around his opponents and pushing him over) and then if successful he gets a free kick in for 1d3+ STR nonlethal as per the feat description. However, the more I look at this, the more I believe that I'm making a mistake.

My question:

If the above is allowed per the RAW, does the unarmed kick draw an AoO from the downed opponent? How about opponents adjacent to the PC?

If the above is not allowed, why?

Thanks!

 

[Hypersmurf]

If the above is allowed per the RAW, does the unarmed kick draw an AoO from the downed opponent? How about opponents adjacent to the PC?

Yes, from the opponent (a prone opponent does not cease to threaten); no, from adjacent opponents (an unarmed attack draws an AoO from your opponent).

On the other hand, I don't see a reason he's restricted to kicking the opponent. If he had not used that attack to trip the opponent, he could have hit the opponent with his longsword instead. Since Improved Trip allows him to make a melee attack as if he had not used the attack to trip, he can use his longsword.

-Hyp.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

Yes, from the opponent (a prone opponent does not cease to threaten); no, from adjacent opponents (an unarmed attack draws an AoO from your opponent).

On the other hand, I don't see a reason he's restricted to kicking the opponent. If he had not used that attack to trip the opponent, he could have hit the opponent with his longsword instead. Since Improved Trip allows him to make a melee attack as if he had not used the attack to trip, he can use his longsword.

-Hyp.

Hmmm... I've always figured that you had to use the "same attack" for your free attack on an opponent that you've tripped. Since he can't trip with a longsword (as it's not a tripping weapon), he can't use the free attack to stab the prone opponent with his longsword. Am I totally misinterpreting this?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Hmmm... I've always figured that you had to use the "same attack" for your free attack on an opponent that you've tripped.

Right.

Since he can't trip with a longsword (as it's not a tripping weapon), he can't use the free attack to stab the prone opponent with his longsword. Am I totally misinterpreting this?

He had an attack available as part of his full attack action. He had choices: he could use this attack to strike with his longsword, or disarm with his longsword; he could drop his longsword and quick draw a dagger to throw; he could drop his longsword and grapple; he could make an unarmed trip; he could kick.

He chose to make an unarmed trip, and was successful.

Improved Trip now says he can make a melee attack as if he had not used his attack to trip. He's not limited to kicking; the attack that he used could, had he not used it to trip, also have been used to strike with his longsword. Since he can attack as if he had not used the attack to trip, he can use it to strike with his longsword.

Contrast this with, say, a wolf who has the Improved Trip feat. He makes a bite attack, and then Trip (Ex) lets him trip his opponent as a free action. Essentially, Trip (Ex) grants him an attack, with the restriction that it may only be used to trip.

He's successful, and so Improved Trip lets him make a melee attack as if he had not used that attack to trip. But this attack carries a special restriction - it can only be used to trip. So the melee attack he gets to make, as if he had not used the attack to trip, can only be a trip... and his opponent is already prone.

-Hyp.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

Interesting...

Well this will make my player happy, we've been debating the point for awhile. (I'm not sure I entirely agree, but I can see the logic in it). Anyone see any balance problems with allowing a melee attack made with a different weapon on Improved Trips?

Thanks!

 

[Nyarlathotep]

*Bump*

Just bumping to see anyone else has thoughts on this.

thanks!

 

[Darklone]

Nope, thumbs up for Hyps.