Improved TWF, Quickdraw and Thrown Weapons?

[Gorgon]

This guy's usual full attack is +10/+5. Using the dagger also makes this +8/+8/+3 with Two-Weapon Fighting. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting adds another off-hand attack at -5 (this penalty replaces the usualone for two-weapon fighting, and is subtracted from the total BAB), so now it becomes +8/+8/+5/+3.


Nowhere does it state that ITWF replace the -2. Those penalties apply whenever fighting with two weapons, and stack. Thus it should be +8/+8/+3/+3.

Just having this argument in my game and need to give the player the reasons and relevent sources of why they stack.
When fighting with two weapons, off hand light it is a -2 penalty, and ITWF has a -5 penalty, I (as DM), and two players, say that these stack because the penalties accrue from different circumstances.
He, and two others in group, say that if the penalties stack it would be mentioned as an additional penalty, and no amount of stating that all penalties stack unless they come from the same cicumstance sways them.

Is there an example character or clarification i can show them. I know that as DM i can say that this is how we are playing it, and that is the solution at the moment, but would prefer if i can resolve it a bit better than "because i said so".

 

[Hypersmurf]

Is there an example character or clarification i can show them.

Here you go.

-Hyp.

 

[Snapdragyn]

Bluff only works in melee.

Master Thrower gets a special ability that allows bluff for ranged attack.

 

[James McMurray]

No, Master Thrower can choose a trick (Sneaky Shot) that allows the use of Sleight of Hand as a move action. It is similar to bluffing in that it removes the target's dexterity bonus to AC.

 

[Alzrius]

Okay, so when this thread was still active I sent some queries off to good old customer service. The email was finally answered. Usual formatting - questions are bold, answers are in normal font:

What type of action is it to change the hand wielding a weapon, assuming your other hand is empty? What about if you want to exchange two weapons between hands? Would it provoke an attack of opportunity? What if you had a buckler on one arm while doing so? Would the Quick Draw feat make a difference?

-It would be a free action that doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. A buckler wouldn't change this, and the quick draw feat makes no difference.

Do the iterative attacks in a full attack sequence need to be made in greatest-to-least order? For example, if a 10th level Fighter was using a longsword in his primary hand, a dagger in his off-hand, with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, he would attack at +8/+8/+3. Either the first or second +8 attack is with his longsword, and the other one is with his dagger, and the last one is with his longsword again. Could he make the +8/+3 attack with his longsword, then take a 5 ft. step back and throw the dagger at +8? Or does he need to make both +8 attacks before using his longsword attack at +3?

-Yes, they must be made in order, greatest to least - primary hand to offhand.... So +8 primary... +8 offhand.... +3 primary.

Presuming that it’s a free action to exchange weapons between hands, what would this do when done in the middle of a full attack sequence? If a 10th level Fighter with a longsword in his primary hand and a dagger in his off-hand, and the Two-Weapon Fighting, Point Blank Shot, and Quick Draw, feats makes a full attack sequence, he’d attack at +8/+8/+3, with one of those +8 attacks being from his dagger. Let’s say he began melee combat by striking first with his longsword at +8, then taking a 5 ft. step back and throwing his dagger at +8 for the purpose of gaining his Point Blank Shot bonus. At this point, he’d basically be unable to make his +3 attack with his primary hand weapon, his longsword (short of throwing it), since he can’t take another 5 ft. step to move forward. Would it be allowable for him to move the longsword to his off-hand, and then use his primary hand with Quick Draw to draw and throw another dagger for the +3 primary hand attack? If so, what would that do to his attack bonus, since his off-hand is now wielding a weapon that isn’t light while his primary hand uses another weapon? Since he already made his other attacks with only a -2 off-hand penalty, didn’t he just “cheat the system” as it were?

-You cannot switch hands in order to simulate two-weapon fighting with a single weapon. If you attack with the sword, and then take a 5 foot step, you may not attack again... even to throw a dagger.

Does the extra ranged attack granted by Rapid Shot need to be used during the middle of a full attack sequence, or can it be held until the end of yoru full attack sequence since its an extra attack?

-As that is not covered by the rules, it is up to your DM to adjudicate.

What actions are involved in having an ally give you a weapon after you’ve lost one? Does he need to be adjacent to you, or can it be tossed to you? What type of action is it to take the offered (or tossed) weapon? What kind of action is it to offer or toss a weapon? If you have reach into a creature’s space, can you pick up a weapon that it has dropped? What about kicking a dropped object away?

-This is a move action, and he must be adjacent to you. You can pick up a weapon that has been dropped, but this is a move action that provokes an attack of opportunity. You could attempt to kick a dropped object away, but as this has not been covered by the rules, it is up to your DM to adjudicate. Good Gaming!


*Please quote this email in any reply.*
*******************************************
Chris
Customer Service Department
Wizards of the Coast
1-800-324-6496
*******************************************

A bit of clarification on one of those answers...I'm pretty sure that when he said "If you attack with the sword, and then take a 5 foot step, you may not attack again... even to throw a dagger." he was referring to attacking with a sword in your primary hand at no penalty, and then trying to step back and use Quick Draw with a dagger in your off-hand...which would mean your first attack should have had a penalty.

 

[Hypersmurf]

A bit of clarification on one of those answers...I'm pretty sure that when he said "If you attack with the sword, and then take a 5 foot step, you may not attack again... even to throw a dagger." he was referring to attacking with a sword in your primary hand at no penalty, and then trying to step back and use Quick Draw with a dagger in your off-hand...which would mean your first attack should have had a penalty.

But the first attack already did have a penalty, didn't it, since you had a dagger in your off-hand from the beginning?

The answer makes typical CustServ sense - that is to say, not a lot.

With a BAB of +10/+5, the character could swing his longsword at +10, drop it, quick draw a dagger, and throw it at +5.

He could swing his longsword at +10, shift it to his left hand, quick draw a dagger, and throw it at +5.

If he's making a TWF attack with a light weapon in his off-hand - like another thrown dagger - then all his attacks take a -2 penalty. Just like you described - primary longsword +8, off-hand dagger +8, primary dagger +3.

You're not trying to 'simulate TWF using a single weapon' in this example. That would be taking a +8 primary attack with your longsword, switching it to your off-hand, taking a +8 off-hand attack with the longsword, switching it back, and taking a +3 primary attack with the longsword. That's understandably impossible - the TWF rules specify "a second weapon in your off-hand". But it's also completely irrelevant to your example.

And that's all aside from the nonsense about requiring attacks to be in the order primary first, off-hand second - the TWF rules clearly state you can use either hand first.

-Hyp.

 

[Alzrius]

But the first attack already did have a penalty, didn't it, since you had a dagger in your off-hand from the beginning?

The answer makes typical CustServ sense - that is to say, not a lot.

With a BAB of +10/+5, the character could swing his longsword at +10, drop it, quick draw a dagger, and throw it at +5.

He could swing his longsword at +10, shift it to his left hand, quick draw a dagger, and throw it at +5.

If he's making a TWF attack with a light weapon in his off-hand - like another thrown dagger - then all his attacks take a -2 penalty. Just like you described - primary longsword +8, off-hand dagger +8, primary dagger +3.

You're not trying to 'simulate TWF using a single weapon' in this example. That would be taking a +8 primary attack with your longsword, switching it to your off-hand, taking a +8 off-hand attack with the longsword, switching it back, and taking a +3 primary attack with the longsword. That's understandably impossible - the TWF rules specify "a second weapon in your off-hand". But it's also completely irrelevant to your example.

I'm not entirely sure that's the scenario he's responding to (which, admittedly, would be odd, since that's the example I used).

What he said was "You cannot switch hands in order to simulate two-weapon fighting with a single weapon." This isn't the scenario I described, exactly, but it seems to be what he's talking about.

He seems to be working off of the idea (if the quoted sentence is any indication), that what I was asking was "could a 10th level Fighter attack with a long sword in his primary hand at +10, then use Quick Draw to whip out a dagger in his off-hand and thus make two more attacks at +8/+3?"...since this would entail the Fighter making that first attack free from penalties for using two weapons. Obviously, that wouldn't work...I think that's the message he's trying to get across; that is somewhat close to the point I was trying to make, since my example was basically the same thing, except about decreasing the off-hand penalties even when you put a longsword into your offhand while throwing a dagger.

Glad I'm not the only one who found his answer somewhat lacking though.

And that's all aside from the nonsense about requiring attacks to be in the order primary first, off-hand second - the TWF rules clearly state you can use either hand first.

Really? Could you quote the relevant passage and cite the page number? Thanks!

 

[tensen]

PGTF has a glove in it that costs 10,000 and makes ALL your weapons throwing and returning. A must have for throwers, sesp due to the exponential growth of weapon costs.

Slight problem with that... What do I do with the third dagger? At least thats my problem at this point. Figure later on I'll need to know what to do with the 4th and 5th one that returned to me. Extra probably end up on the floor. At the end of the combat I'll probably have a pile of daggers in front of me.

 

[tensen]

But the first attack already did have a penalty, didn't it, since you had a dagger in your off-hand from the beginning?

The answer makes typical CustServ sense - that is to say, not a lot.

Well. Remember that Customer Service aren't rules lawyers.
The 5 foot step is allowed before, after, or during actions.
I think they were trying to restrict something that could feasibly be tried if you don't pay attention. That being... Throw dagger... 5 foot step in, and quick draw sword. If you have two attacks, this is a feasible option. If you don't, but have two-weapon fighting... and are using both hands, do you get the penalty, since you aren't fighting with them at the same time?

Overall, this is an example where the player really must declare their action before they go, so you can apply the penalties properly.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Really? Could you quote the relevant passage and cite the page number? Thanks!

PHB p143, under Full Attack.

If you get multiple attacks because your BAB is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.

It's worth noting that the "Deciding between an Attack and a Full Attack" rule is found only in the Full Attack action section, not the Attack action section. The phrasing, also, makes it clear that it only applies when you are taking the Full Attack action.

You cannot take the Attack action, make your attack, then decide to continue with extra attacks instead of moving. Rather, you must take the Full Attack action, make your first attack (with all relevant penalties for TWF, Rapid Shot, Flurry of Blows, etc that you might intend to use for extra attacks in the round), then decide if you wish to forego any extra attacks in exchange for a Move action.

So an attack at +10 followed by an off-hand attack at +8 is not possible; the first attack, as part of a FAA, must take the TWF penalty, or the off-hand attack is not available that round.

Just like you could not make a shot with a bow at +10, and then decide "Okay, for my next shot I'm using Rapid Shot, so I'll get two more attacks at +8/+3". If you don't take the penalty on the first attack, the Rapid Shot extra attack is unavailable to you.

-Hyp.