In an Essentials build a straitjacket?

[Atlemar]

Really, honest question here.

From the three builds we've seen, it seems like each build makes choices for the player. With a non-Essentials character, there is a build, but you can take a class feature for one build and then choose powers from another build, either to customize a character or create a new build (like taking the beastmaster class feature and a bird, and then archer powers to create a better artillerist). But with an Essentials character, it seems your feats are picked for you as you level up, your powers are either from a short list or picked for you -- kind of back to 1e, where classes got predetermined powers at each level.

Yet there was also the comment, I think from Bill Slaviscek, that you'll be able to add shadow powers to your warpriest once Heroes of Shadow comes out.

So my real question is, if a player starts out with an Essentials knight, can he later start pulling in feats and fighter powers from PHB/MP/MP2 and DDI, or is he stuck with that progression all to way to level 30 unless he starts over with a new character?

 

[Remathilis]

Really, honest question here.

From the three builds we've seen, it seems like each build makes choices for the player. With a non-Essentials character, there is a build, but you can take a class feature for one build and then choose powers from another build, either to customize a character or create a new build (like taking the beastmaster class feature and a bird, and then archer powers to create a better artillerist). But with an Essentials character, it seems your feats are picked for you as you level up, your powers are either from a short list or picked for you -- kind of back to 1e, where classes got predetermined powers at each level.

Yet there was also the comment, I think from Bill Slaviscek, that you'll be able to add shadow powers to your warpriest once Heroes of Shadow comes out.

So my real question is, if a player starts out with an Essentials knight, can he later start pulling in feats and fighter powers from PHB/MP/MP2 and DDI, or is he stuck with that progression all to way to level 30 unless he starts over with a new character?

The line goes that you can swap out powers of equal level for each class. For example, you could swap out the Cleaving Assault level 1 at-will for Tide of Iron if you wanted/had access to it.

A few oddities will happen (some marking powers might not work the same) but supposedly, you can mix-and-match if you have the older (or newer) stuff. It just gives "default" choices to make things easier/streamlined.

 

[jasonbostwick]

It was mentioned in an earlier preview that powers that have an assigned level are swappable - i.e., in the Wizard preview, "Hypnotism" is a 'Wizard Attack 1' so it can be swapped with other first level Wizard powers. "Magic Missile" has no level assigned, so it is a class feature.

The individual class structures of the new builds will decide what parts can be 'swapped' I suppose - though the way the first level of the Knight works makes me question how many powers it will get later on that work on the same framework as the PHB fighter.

One thing I can see being used to modify these new "straightjacket" builds later on is an alternate class-features system. I just got the Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide, and it has pages and pages of new class features that swap out the features of the base classes - Heroes of Shadow could offer new options to the Knight by saying something like "At level 1, you gain the Shadowy Aura power. This power replaces your Defender's Aura."

 

[fjw70]

Th level progressions for the essential classes show that they get the same number of feats as the other classes and nothing says you can only pick certain feats (bsides the prereqs). A Knight is a Fighter and pick feats like a Fighter. Same with Warpriest for Cleric and Mage for Wizard.

Also, any class power with a level (i.e. Lvl 1 Wiards attack power) can be swapped out for any other power of the samelevel for that class. So an Essentials Mage could pick Thunderwave for one of his at-wills.

On this second point I don't believe that any of the Knight's powers have levels on them yet. Hence the Knight can only use Knight powers at this time. This will probably change for the Knight's Utlility powers. He can probably pick any Fighter Utility powers of the appropriate level. This isn't confirmed, but a good bet.

So the straightjacketing will vary by class.

 

[fjw70]

For example, you could swap out the Cleaving Assault level 1 at-will for Tide of Iron if you wanted/had access to it.

Cleaving Assault is not a lvl 1 Attack power. It is a Fighter Utility with no level so it can't be swapped out for othe Fighter powers.

 

[fjw70]

"Magic Missile" has no level assigned, so it is a class feature.

MM does have a level. Due to th formatting of the page it is hard to see. If you copy and paste that line then you can see the level.

 

[Charwoman Gene]

Straightjacket is a loaded term, but some of the essentials build are limited from power swapping. A Knight can only swap in classic Utility powers.

Cleric domain powers are explicitly swappable. They said on the podcast they are even available to a classic cleric.

The Straightjacket is by design.

Edit: This is my understanding based off the Ampersands and the podcast.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Yes, and maybe that was the intention... ok, not maybe actually...
as promoted, some classes in essentials have a lower complexity for those who are still learning or just don´t like too many choices in character building.

I believe shadow power source will be subclasses of fighter, wizard and rogue etc...

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I think that straightjacket is too strong a term but these classes are by design to involve minimal building so the player has a viable class with few decisions to make. However, some of the powers are swappable so that people who like that sort of thing can build away.

 

[Atlemar]

My first reaction to the general chorus of yes was, well, that's stupid. Sure, that's fine at first level, but who doesn't know their character and the game well enough by 10th or 20th or 30th level to make those choices themselves?

Then I thought about two players I know. One was in a game I DM, but she dropped out when she had a baby. The other is in a very slow-moving game. Both have never played before this game, but are wives of people who played a lot in high school and college. And I could totally envision them going all the way to level 20 without ever internalizing what [W] means.

And that is why I suddenly understand the point of the knight using MBAs instead of powers.