In Defense Of: +X items

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I don't mind items granting bonuses, except in a system like 4e where the bonus is not actually a bonus. Instead, the so-called bonus is just assumed as an integral part of scaling attack and defense to character level.

"Wow! I've got a +4 sword now and I've gained a level."

"How serendipitous. Now you still get to hit a level-equivalent soldier monster on a 12 or better instead of falling behind."

No more of that, please.

I say it's never a bonus.

"Oh, I gave the AD&D characters +5 swords. Guess I have to send harder enemies against them to make up for the advantage". Great. Nothing changed in the end.
People kinda like a certain range of difficulty to feel properly challenged without being treated unfair.

So get rid of the bonuses. Get rid of them. Throw them out. Forget they ever existed.

If you want magic items to feel different, than give them properties that can change how you play your character.

• Flaming Longsword? You can deal fire damage with them, you can launch a flame bolt with them, you can cloak yourself in fire, you gan fire resistance. It holds you warm at night.
• Holy Avenger? You can radiate holy light that hurts undead and evil outsiders. You can detect the presence of undead and evil outsiders. You can invoke the Divine Laws to smite a foe.
• Battlecrazed Waraxe? You can get into a raging frenzy. You can ignore some injuries. You can let loose a war cry that inspires your allies and has your enemies shaking in fear.
• Deathcut Armor? You resist necrotic effects. Mindless undead ignore you unless you attack. You can slip through the Shadowfell a short distance.

These are rewards. These affect your character. This is not just some abstract bonus to some other abstract numbers. They have meaning. They create a new story for you.

And hey - if using most of these abilities actually costs some kind of resource that you could use for other purposes, they don't even pose a balance issue if you have 30 of them or none. You either cast your Fireball, or you rather use the Lightning Rod to strike someone with lightning. You either make a Comeback Strike, or you Smite a foe.

 

[MarkChevallier]

I'd prefer it if +X weapons and items were completely purged from the game. The biggest problem isn't even how they are boring or necessary, it is how that necessity strongly impacts both the economy of the game and the flexibility with which people can choose their level of magic in their own games. The linear progression of +X bonuses is the primary reason that there are magic items of varying power levels. This leads to a constant treadmill of magic item upgrades, and a system where gold is directly equivalent to character power and must be strictly regulated. This, in turn, makes it much more difficult to use gold as a valuable roleplaying tool (for things like bribes, building castles, running businesses, etc). Removing +X items cleans up this whole mess and gives players and DMs a lot more flexibility with magic items and wealth.

This is true in a game where there is a magical economy (and magic items can be purchased etc), but this isn't necessarily true of many (maybe most) games, and I think given the stated goals of 5E, it will definitely be possible to ignore magical economy and magic item shops etc. I don't think this problem is actually related to +x items directly, but rather their existence in a magical economy world - and I think for many groups who enjoy such things, that is a good thing, not a bad thing.

 

[Hassassin]

Oh, and +X skill items should be "your skill increases to +X, unless it is higher", so that a paladin who puts on boots of elvenkind can sneak like a (low level) rogue.

 

[BASHMAN]

I definitely agree that a magic sword should be better at hit & damage than a non-magic sword.

I'd like to see + weapons remain; but only in a limited way. +1 for Adventurer, +2 for Paragon, and +3 for Epic tier weapons. Oh, and that first magic weapon you got? It's + levels when you do. So you don't throw your +1 named family sword in the garbage the day you get a +2 sword.

The + is essentially an indication of the power of the wielder as much as it is the magic of the blade.

As for the "Christmas Tree" effect, I think of the problem being more of an "arms race" where you are constantly needing more +s to remain at the right power level for the campaign.

What might be cool is if the sword gets magic abilities as you level beyond just +. So the weapon you got at level 3, that was just a +1 sword now can turn undead 1/day at level 5. Or maybe it can cast Charm Person 3/day. Etc. Part of the fun of the campaign might be unlocking the abilities of the sword as the campaign goes on; and these abilities might be kept as a secret by the GM, or maybe just rolled on the spot at random.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Oh, and +X skill items should be "your skill increases to +X, unless it is higher", so that a paladin who puts on boots of elvenkind can sneak like a (low level) rogue.

That's actually something I could get behind. Don't let magic items make the specialist better, only the non-specialist. It may still lead to some silliness (if everyone decks himself out with Gloves of Dexterity, Belts of Giant strength, Boots of Cat's Grace or whatever), but the math works out neater.

It could also give new meaning to an "old" spell like Magic Weapon. Instead of buffing the Fighter, the Wizard can use it to fight alongside with his own sword or staff, without having to sling spells. (Could even be an alternative to 4E At-Wills. I hated the Crossbow Shooting Wizard, but a Gandalf-like Wizard that uses staff or sword works for me. Even though Magic Weapon can also be used on Crossbows, of course.)

 

[TwinBahamut]

This is true in a game where there is a magical economy (and magic items can be purchased etc), but this isn't necessarily true of many (maybe most) games, and I think given the stated goals of 5E, it will definitely be possible to ignore magical economy and magic item shops etc. I don't think this problem is actually related to +x items directly, but rather their existence in a magical economy world - and I think for many groups who enjoy such things, that is a good thing, not a bad thing.

Honestly, I like magic items shops and such. I like the idea of people being able to buy cool magic stuff. I just don't want that to eclipse every other use for money in the game.

However, I don't agree with the idea that it is possible to ignore the magical economy or remove magical markets in a system where +X items are an assumed part of the game. I mean, across the length of a 4E campaign, each character out of an assumed party of five characters will need, at bare minimum, six items (one for each +) for three different slots. This is a minimum of 90 items, and almost any group will have far more than that. This doesn't even count the weaker items that enemies might need. I don't think it is possible to imagine a world with both such a large supply of magic items and a massive amount of wealth invested in magic items where a magic item economy doesn't exist. Certainly, magic item creation rituals allow you to replace shops with magic in 4E, but that just replaces the magic item economy with the functionally identical residuum economy...

The only way to make a magic market optional and still have +X items is to not assume them into the math of the game. And I agree with many of the other posters here that that would be a bad idea, and would probably wreck the balance of the game.

 

[kitsune9]

I can go both ways with a game system. If one game system gets rid of the +X items, that's fine with me as opposed to a system that uses them.

 

[Lordhawkins9]

+x items lost a lot of their luster with 3rd edition and became downright un-magical in 4th by making them strictly assumed and part of the “Math”. Very unfortunate.

In 2e and prior, finding your first +1 weapon was a big deal. Many creatures needed magic weapons to hurt and there was no shop to stop by and just purchase one. Magic items were random.

The first +2 weapon was just as big a deal as the +1 as you started running into creatures that +1 just wasn’t good enough. You still held onto the +1 weapon you had. That +2 weapon might not even be one you were proficient with, but now that you had one…you might start to work on that. Older weapons/items also made great rewards to hand to Hirelings/Followers to increase their worth/loyalty.

+3/+4 weapons were pretty rare, but needed if you wanted to start traveling the planes. There were rules back then that items lost a level of enchantment for every plane distant you traveled. +3 was great on the Prime Material, but in Hell or the Abyss…it’s just +1. Plan on fighting any greater Demons/Devils?...better bring your +4 weapon, cause it’s only +2 on their plane.

+5 was the ultimate weapon. Unless the DM placed one, most parties might never even see one. It was a trophy just as much as a weapon. Something worth bragging about. Very memorable item.

I think +x items are going to stay a part of D&D. I just hope that the developers bring them back to what they used to mean for the PC’s.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Aren't you just describing how magic items were just as much part of the "assumed" baseline in previous editions as before? If you were to face certain monsters, you absolutely needed to have a certain +X item. If you didn't, you weren't just a little "under par" - you could outright forget fighting these creatures.

And in the end, weren't these items still not just... boring. "Oh, I guess I need a higher plus for this one. Okay, magical items are cool because I need them to beat enemies. Got it."

A Bag of Holding is cooler than a +5 Sword you're proficient with. It unfortunately doen't help you kill a Balor, but, well, at least it has some magical effect on it.
A broom of flying can change the entire way you think of movement and travel.

I don't think any commoner will notice whether you got a +1 sword or a +5 sword. "Oh, Bob the FIghter, yeah, I remember him. I saw him kill a Troll once. Pretty impressive. And that demon lord. Yeah, It hink he may have had a different sword then, could be, why not, I mean, they sure break sometimes don't they? His friend that Halfling Jon was funny, though. One day he came back with a broom that flew! Think of it! Flying! That must be an awesome feeling. I don't know, this fighting trolls and demons stuff really sounded mostly dangerous, I am glad that Bob was into that. But the broom. That would be fun to play it. Almost as comfy and fast as a horse, and you fly. I think the wizard guy made a bag of holding once. Think about it! Take that broom, and the bag, and you could travel everywhere! You could probably even make a decent living of it! I don't know why they kept being adventurers. I've heard Bob even died once! I'd have stopped long ago with that broom and the bag. The things I could do with that!"

 

[billd91]

I don't think any commoner will notice whether you got a +1 sword or a +5 sword. "Oh, Bob the FIghter, yeah, I remember him. I saw him kill a Troll once. Pretty impressive. And that demon lord. Yeah, It hink he may have had a different sword then, could be, why not, I mean, they sure break sometimes don't they? His friend that Halfling Jon was funny, though. One day he came back with a broom that flew! Think of it! Flying! That must be an awesome feeling. I don't know, this fighting trolls and demons stuff really sounded mostly dangerous, I am glad that Bob was into that. But the broom. That would be fun to play it. Almost as comfy and fast as a horse, and you fly. I think the wizard guy made a bag of holding once. Think about it! Take that broom, and the bag, and you could travel everywhere! You could probably even make a decent living of it! I don't know why they kept being adventurers. I've heard Bob even died once! I'd have stopped long ago with that broom and the bag. The things I could do with that!"

I think this is perfectly OK. Weapons that are a little bit better than their mundane counterparts - great. Then I can even file the serial numbers off and reskin them as other products of non-magic techniques/minor blessings by the goddess Fortuna for my magic-poor, fantasy-historical Roman Legionnaires campaign.