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In Defense Of: +X items

Lordhawkins9

First Post
Aren't you just describing how magic items were just as much part of the "assumed" baseline in previous editions as before? If you were to face certain monsters, you absolutely needed to have a certain +X item. If you didn't, you weren't just a little "under par" - you could outright forget fighting these creatures.

Not really...at least not nearly as much as later editions.

In 1E a 15th level group is still challenged by a large number of giants. Magic weapons are not needed. They certainly help, but not required. There are other encounters that may require magic weapons, but even then...that's why you have spellcasters with you if no magic weapons. Still winable, but more challenging.

Take this as opposed to 4th. Take an epic level character and put him in an epic level encounter with no magic weapon. That charater is pretty much hosed. Because the +x items are built into the math...they do very poorly without it. They can't hit...opponents can't miss...PC looses.
 

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Not really...at least not nearly as much as later editions.

In 1E a 15th level group is still challenged by a large number of giants. Magic weapons are not needed. They certainly help, but not required. There are other encounters that may require magic weapons, but even then...that's why you have spellcasters with you if no magic weapons. Still winable, but more challenging.

Take this as opposed to 4th. Take an epic level character and put him in an epic level encounter with no magic weapon. That charater is pretty much hosed. Because the +x items are built into the math...they do very poorly without it. They can't hit...opponents can't miss...PC looses.
Actually - without that magic weapons, he may also be challengable by a group of giants, just as in 2e. The situation doesn't really change.

You cannot avoid to "bake" the items in your math. As long as they will give a bonus, it means that you will be better with them than without them, and it means they affect whether you find enemies challenging or not.

Sure, you can make 15 level monsters and pretend those +3 from items don't change anything. But those 15 level monsters will be easier to fight with +3 items than without, and they will also be easier to fight with them than a similar group of monsters were several levels earlier when you only had +1 weapons.

It is kinda like the argument that says that a 15th level Wizard should be stronger than a 15h level Fighter. I think it makes more sense to assume that the "level" is the baseline across all classes, and not just one class internally. If you think that Wizards need to be more powerful than Fighters, say that Wizards get twice the XP, or can always be 5 levels above the Fighter in the group to nail down the difference. But levels and "items by level" or "wealth by levels" and "challenge levels" are inherently more useful to build your game if they all work operate on a comparable scale and assume a shared baseline.

Otherwise you end up with "Level 5 Giants are appropriate challenges for Level 3 Fighters paired up with Level 4 Wizards and Level 6 Clerics, assuming they have LEvel 5 weapons and Level 3 wands and staffs".
 

Actually - without that magic weapons, he may also be challengable by a group of giants, just as in 2e. The situation doesn't really change.

You cannot avoid to "bake" the items in your math. As long as they will give a bonus, it means that you will be better with them than without them, and it means they affect whether you find enemies challenging or not.

Sure, you can make 15 level monsters and pretend those +3 from items don't change anything. But those 15 level monsters will be easier to fight with +3 items than without, and they will also be easier to fight with them than a similar group of monsters were several levels earlier when you only had +1 weapons.

It is kinda like the argument that says that a 15th level Wizard should be stronger than a 15h level Fighter. I think it makes more sense to assume that the "level" is the baseline across all classes, and not just one class internally. If you think that Wizards need to be more powerful than Fighters, say that Wizards get twice the XP, or can always be 5 levels above the Fighter in the group to nail down the difference. But levels and "items by level" or "wealth by levels" and "challenge levels" are inherently more useful to build your game if they all work operate on a comparable scale and assume a shared baseline.

Otherwise you end up with "Level 5 Giants are appropriate challenges for Level 3 Fighters paired up with Level 4 Wizards and Level 6 Clerics, assuming they have LEvel 5 weapons and Level 3 wands and staffs".

What says we have to have only 1 baseline for monsters, and that that baseline alone has to account for magic item bonuses? Why not have multiple baselines? Consider this:

We could have 6 baselines, a "base" baseline for creating monsters that would be a fair challenge to characters with non-magical equipment and 5 further baselines that are calculated to challenge characters with +1 to +5 equipment. For example: A common orc warrior would be a level 2 +0 monster, an adult red dragon would be a level 10 +3 monster, mountain giants level 15 +1 monsters and Asmodeus would be a level 20 +5 monster.
 

MarkChevallier

First Post
Sure, you can make 15 level monsters and pretend those +3 from items don't change anything. But those 15 level monsters will be easier to fight with +3 items than without, and they will also be easier to fight with them than a similar group of monsters were several levels earlier when you only had +1 weapons.

Isn't this fine? They should be easier to fight with +3 weapons. That should be the benefit of owning a +3 weapon.

It is kinda like the argument that says that a 15th level Wizard should be stronger than a 15h level Fighter. I think it makes more sense to assume that the "level" is the baseline across all classes, and not just one class internally. If you think that Wizards need to be more powerful than Fighters, say that Wizards get twice the XP, or can always be 5 levels above the Fighter in the group to nail down the difference. But levels and "items by level" or "wealth by levels" and "challenge levels" are inherently more useful to build your game if they all work operate on a comparable scale and assume a shared baseline.

I'm not sure I understand the point you're making here. Are you essentially saying that it's easier to gauge challenges if you reduce party power and monster challenge to a single number? In that case, I agree, but I don't understand where the Fighter/Wizard reference arises in this context. One thing, though, where I think I disagree with you; I don't think that that single number should be used as a complete straightjacket - I think it's more interesting if the game has a variety of monsters, some more easily defeated by some classes than others, or by some methods than others. The "simple number" (in my opinion) should be a general guideline, not a hard-and-fast rule. Eyeballing the challenge should always be helpful.

Otherwise you end up with "Level 5 Giants are appropriate challenges for Level 3 Fighters paired up with Level 4 Wizards and Level 6 Clerics, assuming they have LEvel 5 weapons and Level 3 wands and staffs".

I don't think this is true - you can instead end up with "Average the party level; add +1 if they mostly have +2 or +3 weapons and +2 if they mostly have +4 or +5 weapons. This is the party challenge strength. Match with appropriate monsters, such as the Level 5 Mini-giant."

So the bonus items aren't "baked into" the math, there's no assumption that a party must have them to make the challenge ratings work; instead there's simply an accommodation made for them in the calculation.
 

FireLance

Legend
I don't think this is true - you can instead end up with "Average the party level; add +1 if they mostly have +2 or +3 weapons and +2 if they mostly have +4 or +5 weapons. This is the party challenge strength. Match with appropriate monsters, such as the Level 5 Mini-giant."

So the bonus items aren't "baked into" the math, there's no assumption that a party must have them to make the challenge ratings work; instead there's simply an accommodation made for them in the calculation.
While I agree that an approach of assuming no magic items and increasing the PCs' effective level if they happen to have powerful magic items would be more palatable to some players, it is mathematically the same as assuming the PCs have access to the powerful magic items and reducing the PCs' effective level if they do not.

I do acknowledge that psychologically, it can be quite different, but as far as the game math is concerned, it makes as much difference as whether AC goes up or down.
 

Hassassin

First Post
While I agree that an approach of assuming no magic items and increasing the PCs' effective level if they happen to have powerful magic items would be more palatable to some players, it is mathematically the same as assuming the PCs have access to the powerful magic items and reducing the PCs' effective level if they do not.

I do acknowledge that psychologically, it can be quite different, but as far as the game math is concerned, it makes as much difference as whether AC goes up or down.

I'd be fine with that too as long as the math worked.

However, assuming that the items are there and increase by level leads to having +2 items meaning different things at different levels. At first you can probably add one to APL, or is it two? At 17th I have no idea, but probably somewhere in the range -1 to -4?

Going the other way around makes the math easier, as +2 items can mean the same thing at every level.
 

FireLance

Legend
I'd be fine with that too as long as the math worked.

However, assuming that the items are there and increase by level leads to having +2 items meaning different things at different levels. At first you can probably add one to APL, or is it two? At 17th I have no idea, but probably somewhere in the range -1 to -4?

Going the other way around makes the math easier, as +2 items can mean the same thing at every level.
Well, my rule of thumb for 4E is that a character's effective level is 80% of his actual level plus one-third the sum of the "plusses" on his equipment. Hence, a 15th-level character with no magic items is effectively 12th level, and one with a +1 weapon, +2 armor and a +3 neck slot item is effectively 14th level.

It can be worked out (give or take a level), but going the other way would indeed make the math easier.
 


Isn't this fine? They should be easier to fight with +3 weapons. That should be the benefit of owning a +3 weapon.
I don't consider it fine or "unfine". It is expected. And in 4E, if you play a 16th level Fighter with a +1 sword, an equal level Giant will be harder to fight than if he had a +4 sword (as would be about expected). So no real difference, right?
Except that the game tells you that a 16th level character with a 16th level gear can expect a similar challenge to deal with a 16th level enemy than he did as a 5th level fighter with 5th level gear against a 5th level enemy. Isn't that nice?

I'm not sure I understand the point you're making here. Are you essentially saying that it's easier to gauge challenges if you reduce party power and monster challenge to a single number? In that case, I agree, but I don't understand where the Fighter/Wizard reference arises in this context. One thing, though, where I think I disagree with you; I don't think that that single number should be used as a complete straightjacket - I think it's more interesting if the game has a variety of monsters, some more easily defeated by some classes than others, or by some methods than others. The "simple number" (in my opinion) should be a general guideline, not a hard-and-fast rule. Eyeballing the challenge should always be helpful.
You can always add variation in multiple forms. Monsters don'T have all attacks, damage and defense values identical. They have weaknesses and strength. It is a baseline for that level. In addition, you can vary the level of the challenge by using monsters of different levels.

But you have this nice baseline: "A nth level player character with nth level gear will find a nth level monster a reasonable challenge".

I don't think this is true - you can instead end up with "Average the party level; add +1 if they mostly have +2 or +3 weapons and +2 if they mostly have +4 or +5 weapons. This is the party challenge strength. Match with appropriate monsters, such as the Level 5 Mini-giant."

So the bonus items aren't "baked into" the math, there's no assumption that a party must have them to make the challenge ratings work; instead there's simply an accommodation made for them in the calculation.
That, I think, could also be nice. If the "average gear level" or "plus level" of the party could be applied as a modifier to their level.

But again, on a fundamental level, I disagree with even having +x items at all. They only change some math things. They don't create a different style or thematic element. And from a pure gameplay point of view I still maintain that the "difficulty" of an encounter or scene will always have to fall into a certain range, so if you give your players +4 weapons, you will want them to challenge with a little harder foes, otherwise they game will become boring.

And then there's the idea - maybe you don't even want to have every character use a magic weapon just because he fights with weapons? What if one character has a heirloom sword - non-magical, but with great meaning? You give the other character a +4 Greataxe, and he's happy hacking away at enemies with it, while the "roleplayer" that wanted to keep the ancient sword his grandfather already wore into battle.

Also - when you have +x items, you naturally will want enemies where you "need" such items to hit reasonably often. But this in turn basically requires you to have enemies that you will auto-hit and auto-miss at some point. We only use the d20, so you have to accomdante another +5 modifer to defenses for magical enhancement, when you also have to take into account all the other bonuses that players get. You easily go far beyond the d20 range with the possible values people can reach. But is that really desirable?

So I think the +x items only add complexity to the game, but doesn't really add to story and enjoyment of the game. It just causes another risk to it, and more boring math(which is also a risk to enjoyment for plenty of players), and mathematical artifacts.

Focus on the story and flavor of the magical items, and you gain so much more. You can have a Fighter being known for his mastery of fire thanks to his Flaming Greataxe, instead of having a Fighte whose only shstick is that his stick has a higher abstract number than another stick. ;)

And you can have him alongside the Fighter with his heirloom. He is renown for his martial prowess and cunning, and still wielding the sword of his ancestors. But the players don't have to mind, their characters are still equally effective, they look and feel very different on the battlefield, but they both still can defeat their enemies equally well.
 

It was 3rd edition and its need for magic items, that destroyed the balance. ADnD had them, and they were great. A flametongue +1/+2/+3 was a real treasure. Now it is just another tool

In Defense of 3rd edition however, Video games, especially the otherwise great baldur´s gate allowed to buy magic items in the tavern... imho this flawed the preception of newer gamers who now thought, magic items are common. Add the flawed saving throws (good idea, but just too low to be useful) and the game is overpolluted by magic items.
4e is a little bit better in that regard, but not so much... (although of course taking away magic items and reducing monster levels should work reasonably well... but this strength was never used...
hey, I am level 4, why should a goblin be able to kill me...

hmmh actually without magic items at level 3, a level 2 monster should be equally challenging as a 3rd level monster otherwise... IMHO this is true...
 

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