D&D 5E In fifth-edition D&D, what is gold for?

[Jester David]

It's important to point out that this only works if you let it happen. If PCs are trying to sell assets for "tens of thousands of gp" they can't just redeem them for gp at the local shop. It's going to take time to find a willing buyer with that much liquid cash, if one exists. And even then authorities might get suspicious of this group who's constantly selling used ships, or even of non-locals selling a ship for the first time.

Which would be a house rule, as the rules are pretty clear on how much money is available in towns:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/settlements

Plus, when you're dealing with the assumptions merchants have 50,000gp to sell you the equivalent of a +5 sword, what's a few 10,000 sailing ships?

If you do get realistic and question how the party is finding a merchant with magic items worth that much and a collective stock worth hundreds of thousands of gp, then you're denying the players they're expected wealth-by-level of gear and they fall below the power curve. You might as well deny them a feat.

 

[MechaPilot]

Which would be a house rule, as the rules are pretty clear on how much money is available in towns:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/settlements

Plus, when you're dealing with the assumptions merchants have 50,000gp to sell you the equivalent of a +5 sword, what's a few 10,000 sailing ships?

If you do get realistic and question how the party is finding a merchant with magic items worth that much and a collective stock worth hundreds of thousands of gp, then you're denying the players they're expected wealth-by-level of gear and they fall below the power curve. You might as well deny them a feat.

You never said anything in your post about pathfinder; you simply said you ran a pirate game. Therefore, the logical assumption (given where you posted) is that you were talking about D&D 5e.

Now maybe PF has wealth by level rules. IDK. IDK PF. I looked at the link you provided, and if one takes the info therein as rules you're supposed to blindly follow, if you are actually supposed to assume that people have literally unlimited amounts of liquid cash that they can only spend on single items in chucks with a maximum value of X, and that people are constantly in the market for used ships whenever they become available, then I can see the problem you describe happening. However, that's a problem born of blind adherence to nonsensical rules.

The notion that a shop can has a limit of 25,000 gp to spend on any single item and can buy a literally infinite number of discrete items for 25,000 gp a pop but can't pay 25,001 gp for a single item is ridiculous on its face, but that's what the rules you linked say is the case. Forgive me if I feel I owe no deference to rules when blind deference results in absurdity and abuse.

 

[Jester David]

You never said anything in your post about pathfinder; you simply said you ran a pirate game. Therefore, the logical assumption (given where you posted) is that you were talking about D&D 5e.

Now maybe PF has wealth by level rules. IDK. IDK PF. I looked at the link you provided, and if one takes the info therein as rules you're supposed to blindly follow, if you are actually supposed to assume that people have literally unlimited amounts of liquid cash that they can only spend on single items in chucks with a maximum value of X, and that people are constantly in the market for used ships whenever they become available, then I can see the problem you describe happening. However, that's a problem born of blind adherence to nonsensical rules.

The notion that a shop can has a limit of 25,000 gp to spend on any single item and can buy a literally infinite number of discrete items for 25,000 gp a pop but can't pay 25,001 gp for a single item is ridiculous on its face, but that's what the rules you linked say is the case. Forgive me if I feel I owe no deference to rules when blind deference results in absurdity and abuse.

Both Pathfinder and 3.5e have comparable wealth by level and settlement statblocks. *Almost* identical really.
But the PF one is part of the PRD and available online, while the 3.5e rules are not part of the SRD.

Regardless, the rules of the game have a set amount of disposable money available in settlements, and the total amount of wealth in a settlement, plus the expected wealth per level of PCs.
You can ignore those if you wish. And that's fine. But that's a house rule.

 

[MechaPilot]

Both Pathfinder and 3.5e have comparable wealth by level and settlement statblocks. *Almost* identical really.
But the PF one is part of the PRD and available online, while the 3.5e rules are not part of the SRD.

Regardless, the rules of the game have a set amount of disposable money available in settlements, and the total amount of wealth in a settlement, plus the expected wealth per level of PCs.
You can ignore those if you wish. And that's fine. But that's a house rule.

I happen to have my 3.5 DMG handy. Page 137 under the heading Generating Towns says "When the PCs come into a town and you need to generate facts about that town quickly you can use the following material." Emphasis added. Very clearly, that's more of a resource of convenience than a rule.

Even if we assume that section is rules, I direct your attention to the text under the Economics heading (pg 139) which says an economic system should be "internally consistent," as well as the text under the Supply and Demand heading (pg 140) which briefly touches on the devaluation of currency when there are large inflows from PC spending, and the altering of equipment prices when market supply fluctuates.

Plus, the 3.5e DMG gives a means of calculating ready cash for the entire community (listed gp limit divided by 20 and multiplied by population), and does not assume unlimited cash only expendable in buckets with certain maximum sizes. However, nowhere does it state that an individual purchaser has access to the town's entire supply of ready cash (it would be absurd to do so), so you can very easily assume a willing purchaser has less funds available than the ready cash amount, and that an individual purchaser might have to take some time to convert some assets into ready cash from other citizens before buying what the PCs want to sell.

Further, consider that ships are different from most goods in that there are few shops who will maintain a finished goods inventory of completed vessels or that will have the facilities to store a purchased vessel. The expectation that the PCs might have to put in some effort to find someone who is willing to buy a ship does not go against either the spirit or letter of the rules. Plus, it has the added benefits of preventing abuse of the rules while also creating more internal consistency for the economics of your world.

 

[Azzy]

If currency exists in your game world, and works (even broadly) the way it does in the real world, the answer should be pretty self-evident.

 

[Jester David]

I happen to have my 3.5 DMG handy. Page 137 under the heading Generating Towns says "When the PCs come into a town and you need to generate facts about that town quickly you can use the following material." Emphasis added. Very clearly, that's more of a resource of convenience than a rule.

Even if we assume that section is rules, I direct your attention to the text under the Economics heading (pg 139) which says an economic system should be "internally consistent," as well as the text under the Supply and Demand heading (pg 140) which briefly touches on the devaluation of currency when there are large inflows from PC spending, and the altering of equipment prices when market supply fluctuates.

Plus, the 3.5e DMG gives a means of calculating ready cash for the entire community (listed gp limit divided by 20 and multiplied by population), and does not assume unlimited cash only expendable in buckets with certain maximum sizes. However, nowhere does it state that an individual purchaser has access to the town's entire supply of ready cash (it would be absurd to do so), so you can very easily assume a willing purchaser has less funds available than the ready cash amount, and that an individual purchaser might have to take some time to convert some assets into ready cash from other citizens before buying what the PCs want to sell.

Further, consider that ships are different from most goods in that there are few shops who will maintain a finished goods inventory of completed vessels or that will have the facilities to store a purchased vessel. The expectation that the PCs might have to put in some effort to find someone who is willing to buy a ship does not go against either the spirit or letter of the rules. Plus, it has the added benefits of preventing abuse of the rules while also creating more internal consistency for the economics of your world.

Of course they say "you can". They're not going to save "you have to". That's doesn't sound right. That's not how the language works or rules texts are written.
Unless there are alternate rules provided, then those are the rules of the game. You can change the rules at any time - like any rule of the game- but that's still homebrewing. Insert reference to the Stormwind fallacy <here>.

3.5e is just not a system that leads to a logical economy in any way. The world is based around commoners earning silver pieces for days of work and from second or third level players have enough wealth to sit around and relax for years. You can buy a house for 1,000 (aka the price of +1 armour) or a "grand house" for 5,000. A single +3 sword or +4 suit of armour is worth enough that you could sell it and retire, living a comfortable life for fifty or so years.
By level 5 or 6 you shouldn't really have any reason to adventure in a sword & sorcery style game. Wealth and luxury has been achieved. Or a "piracy" game where the party are bold buccaneers trying to strike it rich. The amount of magic thrown at them by the game system means they're wealthy beyond words after a few levels.


As for my ship quandary, yes as a DM I could rule that any give town doesn't have the liquid cash needed to buy a 10,000 gp sailing ship. But player's are still expecting to buy magical items worth tens of thousands of gold pieces. So the vendor doesn't need to have the cash on hand, they just need the magical item and the PCs can trade ships for magic items.

 

[Jester David]

I happen to have my 3.5 DMG handy. Page 137 under the heading Generating Towns says "When the PCs come into a town and you need to generate facts about that town quickly you can use the following material." Emphasis added. Very clearly, that's more of a resource of convenience than a rule.

Even if we assume that section is rules, I direct your attention to the text under the Economics heading (pg 139) which says an economic system should be "internally consistent," as well as the text under the Supply and Demand heading (pg 140) which briefly touches on the devaluation of currency when there are large inflows from PC spending, and the altering of equipment prices when market supply fluctuates.

Plus, the 3.5e DMG gives a means of calculating ready cash for the entire community (listed gp limit divided by 20 and multiplied by population), and does not assume unlimited cash only expendable in buckets with certain maximum sizes. However, nowhere does it state that an individual purchaser has access to the town's entire supply of ready cash (it would be absurd to do so), so you can very easily assume a willing purchaser has less funds available than the ready cash amount, and that an individual purchaser might have to take some time to convert some assets into ready cash from other citizens before buying what the PCs want to sell.

Further, consider that ships are different from most goods in that there are few shops who will maintain a finished goods inventory of completed vessels or that will have the facilities to store a purchased vessel. The expectation that the PCs might have to put in some effort to find someone who is willing to buy a ship does not go against either the spirit or letter of the rules. Plus, it has the added benefits of preventing abuse of the rules while also creating more internal consistency for the economics of your world.

I decided to look at those rules.
Each type of city has a gp limit representing the most expensive item available. A small city (3rd from the top in terms of size) has a limit of 15,000. Menacing you should be able to buy a sailing ship in such a city.
The total amount of cash available is determined by halving the gp limit and multiplying it by a tenth of the population. The smallest small city has 5000 people. So the amount of cash there is (15,000)/2 x (5000)/10. Or 3,750,000 gp. Selling a 10k sailing ship for half price and you should be able to unload 750 such ships in such a town.

A party should be able to unload two or three without issue. Because the game assumes everyone will have thousands of gp in treasure and be buying magic items worth tens of thousands.

 

[MechaPilot]

Of course they say "you can". They're not going to save "you have to". That's doesn't sound right. That's not how the language works or rules texts are written.

Typically, unless the rules are explicitly giving you an option, "can" is not used. If they were rules, instead of a convenient resource, it would make much more sense to omit the "you can" and simply say the following:

"When the PCs come into a town and you need to generate facts about that town quickly use the following material."

"Can" or "may" is an easy indicator that something is very likely not a rule.

Unless there are alternate rules provided, then those are the rules of the game. You can change the rules at any time - like any rule of the game- but that's still homebrewing. Insert reference to the Stormwind fallacy <here>.

A convenient resource doesn't become rules text simply because only one resource is provided for that given purpose.

3.5e is just not a system that leads to a logical economy in any way. The world is based around commoners earning silver pieces for days of work and from second or third level players have enough wealth to sit around and relax for years. You can buy a house for 1,000 (aka the price of +1 armour) or a "grand house" for 5,000. A single +3 sword or +4 suit of armour is worth enough that you could sell it and retire, living a comfortable life for fifty or so years.
By level 5 or 6 you shouldn't really have any reason to adventure in a sword & sorcery style game. Wealth and luxury has been achieved. Or a "piracy" game where the party are bold buccaneers trying to strike it rich. The amount of magic thrown at them by the game system means they're wealthy beyond words after a few levels.

You don't need to sell me on 3.5e having pricing issues. I'm already on board with that. Just like 5e has issues with the crafting rules, or the insane 100 gp price for the PHB's basic poison.

As for my ship quandary, yes as a DM I could rule that any give town doesn't have the liquid cash needed to buy a 10,000 gp sailing ship. But player's are still expecting to buy magical items worth tens of thousands of gold pieces. So the vendor doesn't need to have the cash on hand, they just need the magical item and the PCs can trade ships for magic items.

Sure, you can absolutely do it that way. I mean, it's probably likely that the magic item vendor would want cash instead of a ship that would likely take some time to dispose of at a reasonable price. But, handwaving that is entirely doable if you want to accelerate the time between intent to sell the ship and purchasing the magic items.

 

[MichaelSomething]

If currency exists in your game world, and works (even broadly) the way it does in the real world, the answer should be pretty self-evident.

And how many adventurers does our world have?

 

[MechaPilot]

I decided to look at those rules.
Each type of city has a gp limit representing the most expensive item available. A small city (3rd from the top in terms of size) has a limit of 15,000. Menacing you should be able to buy a sailing ship in such a city.

Yes. You should.

The total amount of cash available is determined by halving the gp limit and multiplying it by a tenth of the population. The smallest small city has 5000 people. So the amount of cash there is (15,000)/2 x (5000)/10. Or 3,750,000 gp.

I consolidated the halving the gp limit and the one-tenth-ing the population by just saying to divide the gp limit by 20, but yeah we get the same result on that.

Selling a 10k sailing ship for half price and you should be able to unload 750 such ships in such a town. A party should be able to unload two or three without issue.

The entire town can, by expending ALL its liquid cash, afford to buy that many. Does the entire town want to blow its whole wad on 750 ships? Even the farmers, the tailors, and barkeeps? Does every farmer in the settlement have a 1/20,000th share of ownership in a ship?

Unless the people doing the buying have access to the entire town's liquid wealth, you're not going to be able to unload 750 ships on that town. And, being able to unload any ships on the town is predicated on there being a willing buyer. There is no rule a willing buyer must exist, or that a willing buyer must have the resources to buy what they want to buy. If you want to let your players sell ships, even 750 of them, and even to a town that is entirely landlocked, feel free to do so. Just be aware that if the PCs are throwing around too much money for your taste it is because you allowed them to do so.

Because the game assumes everyone will have thousands of gp in treasure and be buying magic items worth tens of thousands.

The game assumes the possession of magic items of significant value. The game does not assume that you purchased them. You can, and I have, replaced coins and gems and art objects with magic items of an equivalent gp value.