In praise of the rules lawyer

[Walking Paradox]

Since my last thread, the one about whether or not railroading can be a good thing, generated so much discussion, I figured that I might as well bring up another pet peeve that many gamers have: The rules lawyer.

Somebody who forces the GM to look up everything before making a ruling (or who does the looking up himself), or who demands a rules explanation for everything that the GM says happens, is obviously a human hemorrhoid. On the other hand, there are people whose knowledge of the rules or of facts that are external to the rules but part of the action can actually aid the flow of a game.

Has anybody here ever found a rules lawyer to be helpful?

 

[ArghMark]

I have an experienced gamer who 90% of the time is a great aid to the game, as in help with rules and so on (Playing Ars Magica, so its a relatively complex system).

10% of the time.. we get bogged down in important events with numbers discussion. Drives me up the wall. Still, I generally just skip over the issue until later. But when I'm describing an important action scene and he wants to talk numbers......

 

[Kodam]

Hi!

I'm DM of a 4e Campaign. One of my players is kinda our Herald of 4e; he is DM in another campaign in which I am player. I do have a solid grasp on the rules but not in every detail. So if a situation arises where I'm not sure, I just ask him and on we go.
I think its great that way so I can concentrate on keeping the flow with the rules basically out of the way.
It works for us. *shrug*

Kodam

 

[Alexander123]

Well when playing Dnd I know that the first time I began playing I didn't know all the rules so I relied on people who did for help until I had gained sufficient mastery. Now sometimes a player may engage in rules lawyering because they don't want to be cheated which is a perfectly valid reason for rules lawyering. So I wouldn't say that rules lawyering is bad, although this is coming from my experiences others may have had different experiences with rules lawyering. Dnd is after about both role-playing and the actual mechanics of the game (optimization I suppose.) and the mechanics require a knowledge of the rules.

 

[Dausuul]

Rules lawyers are like real-life lawyers. Many do good, valuable, important work. A few are the scum of the earth. The latter get all the attention.

 

[billd91]

I don't think of the guy who knows the rules inside and out and is helpful at the table by offering his expertise in rule adjudication is a rules lawyer. That's a rules expert. And yes, they're good to have around, particularly when they know to give way for the DM when the situation warrants a ruling that doesn't exactly comply with the rules.

The rules lawyer is the guy who knows the text of the rules, argues over interpretation of the text, and otherwise won't let go in the face of the DM's rulings. Lawyers argue. In an adversarial justice system, that's their job. They should do so tenaciously in favor of their clients, be they defendants, plaintiffs, the state, whomever. But that's not the right approach, if you ask me, to take in an RPG.

 

[nedjer]

Has anybody here ever found a rules lawyer to be helpful?

I find them very therapeutic - usually round about the stage when I've completed the voodoo doll and stuck a few pins in it

 

[Dausuul]

I don't think of the guy who knows the rules inside and out and is helpful at the table by offering his expertise in rule adjudication is a rules lawyer. That's a rules expert. And yes, they're good to have around, particularly when they know to give way for the DM when the situation warrants a ruling that doesn't exactly comply with the rules.

The rules lawyer is the guy who knows the text of the rules, argues over interpretation of the text, and otherwise won't let go in the face of the DM's rulings. Lawyers argue. In an adversarial justice system, that's their job. They should do so tenaciously in favor of their clients, be they defendants, plaintiffs, the state, whomever. But that's not the right approach, if you ask me, to take in an RPG.

I am reminded of Celebrim's recent post on railroading, in which he points out that many of the listed railroading techniques are useful DMing tools when applied subtly, in small doses. I think it's the same with rules lawyering. There are times when challenging the DM and being willing to argue your point are good things--the DM may not have thought through the implications of how she's applying the rules, or may simply have made a mistake.

However, continuing to argue after the DM announces her final ruling is taking it too far. And like arguing with the judge in a real-life courtroom, it seldom ends well.

 

[kitsune9]

Since my last thread, the one about whether or not railroading can be a good thing, generated so much discussion, I figured that I might as well bring up another pet peeve that many gamers have: The rules lawyer.

Somebody who forces the GM to look up everything before making a ruling (or who does the looking up himself), or who demands a rules explanation for everything that the GM says happens, is obviously a human hemorrhoid. On the other hand, there are people whose knowledge of the rules or of facts that are external to the rules but part of the action can actually aid the flow of a game.

Has anybody here ever found a rules lawyer to be helpful?

Rule lawyers help me make the game flow. I don't get stopped at every action I do and we get the rule look ups done when we're in combats that are make-or-break encounters. I'm fairly knowledgeable myself on the rules, so I don't get objected to as much.

 

[Umbran]

I have known and worked with several rules experts who have been immensely helpful at the table.

I think the colloquial "rules lawyer" is a specific form of expert, who is not so helpful. Anyone incessantly demanding things at the table, interrupting the flow of the game and the GM's flow of events is a problem. It doesn't matter if they are demanding rules precision, in-game spotlight, or the bag of cheetos.