D&D 5E In your opinion, what is the most underrated spell in the PHB and why?

[Celtavian]

Player 1: "B-9"
DM: "You sunk my Lizardfolk!"

Exactly.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

RE: Underrated spells,

I've been recently reminded what a fantastic spell Shield of Faith is for holding a chokepoint. I added a paladin back into my test party (used to practice battles while ensuring that I do not custom tailor challenges to PC weaknesses, because that's unfair) and am having him act as the point of the spear instead of the monk. There's a huge difference between AC 18 and 23 when fighting mooks with +4 to +6 to hit, and while some of that is due to class features, 2 points of difference is due to Shield of Faith. AC 23 with disadvantage (from Dodging) gets hit by mooks only 1% of the time, which gives plenty of time for archers to demolish the opposition. What makes it even better is the fact that it's only a bonus action spell to cast, so you can enable Shield of Faith + Dodge instantaneously when you need it. And of course, it stacks with Sanctuary on the following round (no concentration) and also, if your paladin is also a sorcerer, Shield. But Shield isn't underrated so we don't care about it in this thread.

So anyway, Shield of Faith. Awesome spell from level 2 onwards. It's making my life so, so much easier.

 

[Celtavian]

RE: Underrated spells,

I've been recently reminded what a fantastic spell Shield of Faith is for holding a chokepoint. I added a paladin back into my test party (used to practice battles while ensuring that I do not custom tailor challenges to PC weaknesses, because that's unfair) and am having him act as the point of the spear instead of the monk. There's a huge difference between AC 18 and 23 when fighting mooks with +4 to +6 to hit, and while some of that is due to class features, 2 points of difference is due to Shield of Faith. AC 23 with disadvantage (from Dodging) gets hit by mooks only 1% of the time, which gives plenty of time for archers to demolish the opposition. What makes it even better is the fact that it's only a bonus action spell to cast, so you can enable Shield of Faith + Dodge instantaneously when you need it. And of course, it stacks with Sanctuary on the following round (no concentration) and also, if your paladin is also a sorcerer, Shield. But Shield isn't underrated so we don't care about it in this thread.

So anyway, Shield of Faith. Awesome spell from level 2 onwards. It's making my life so, so much easier.

Yep. That's why I was surprised you thought so highly of the monk's AC. Heavy Armor wearer with shield, heavy armor mastery, and Defensive fighting style so much better than the monk at enduring attacks. Throw on a Shield of Faith, he doesn't even need to dodge. He can pretty much pound away and rarely get hit save by the occasional lucky hit. Throw in a sorcerer or wizard level or fighter eldritch knight with shield, you have a nightmare to hit way worse than the monk could ever dream of.

As my monk levels, he seems more of an ideal mobile skirmisher. If you have the heavy armor paladin spear point holding the choke point, the monk would be the guy running up the haft attacking and retreating back down the haft.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Yep. That's why I was surprised you thought so highly of the monk's AC.

As a general rule, when someone expresses an opinion which is obvious idiocy, you can put it down to one of two causes. Either:

1.) They're an idiot, or
2.) You're misunderstanding them.

I am not an idiot. Ergo, when I say that (shadow) monks have excellent survivability, you can be pretty sure that I'm not talking about their AC because that would be an idiotic opinion: monk AC maxes out at AC 20 at the very highest levels, whereas a fighter or paladin can (in theory) start with an AC of 21 at first level, or in practice whenever he finds plate armor/maxes Dex, whichever comes first (probably by 6th level at the latest).

Monks have excellent survivability because AC is a relatively poor defense. (Shadow) monks rely on mobility, stealth, and ranged combat to survive and hammer the enemy. (Is this the thread where we talked about hammre/anvil?) They have excellent saves and good AC, but in all cases a better defense than AC is not to be targetted in the first place. I would hesitate to send an AC 25 paladin into a nest of 400 giant ants alone, because even if he gets hit only 5% of the time, he's still going to be taking 4 to 8 points of damage every round and dead in a minute. (If he Dodges he'll get hit only 0.25% of the time and last quite a bit longer, but if he's spending all his time dodging he can't hit back, and once one of the ants grapples him he is toast: no dodge and no escape.) I would have no hesitation at all about sending an AC 18 Wood Elf Shadow Monk with Mobile into the exact same situation, and it's not because AC 18 is better than AC 25.

I'm not an idiot.

 

[possessedbyfiredemon]

I don't know if it's underrated but Spike Growth has been a real killer in my game, basically halved a charging Gnoll chariot since they weren't able to stop...

 

[Sacrosanct]

As a general rule, when someone expresses an opinion which is obvious idiocy, you can put it down to one of two causes. Either:

1.) They're an idiot, or
2.) You're misunderstanding them.

I am not an idiot. Ergo, when I say that (shadow) monks have excellent survivability, you can be pretty sure that I'm not talking about their AC because that would be an idiotic opinion: monk AC maxes out at AC 20 at the very highest levels, whereas a fighter or paladin can (in theory) start with an AC of 21 at first level, or in practice whenever he finds plate armor/maxes Dex, whichever comes first (probably by 6th level at the latest).

Monks have excellent survivability because AC is a relatively poor defense. (Shadow) monks rely on mobility, stealth, and ranged combat to survive and hammer the enemy. (Is this the thread where we talked about hammre/anvil?) They have excellent saves and good AC, but in all cases a better defense than AC is not to be targetted in the first place. I would hesitate to send an AC 25 paladin into a nest of 400 giant ants alone, because even if he gets hit only 5% of the time, he's still going to be taking 4 to 8 points of damage every round and dead in a minute. (If he Dodges he'll get hit only 0.25% of the time and last quite a bit longer, but if he's spending all his time dodging he can't hit back, and once one of the ants grapples him he is toast: no dodge and no escape.) I would have no hesitation at all about sending an AC 18 Wood Elf Shadow Monk with Mobile into the exact same situation, and it's not because AC 18 is better than AC 25.

I'm not an idiot.

This is all true, but I've found that my shadow monk does find himself as the defensive road block in a choke point fairly often as well. Yes, any PC can dodge, but a monk can with ki and still attack or do other things. An AC20 with dodge is what? The equivalent of 24 or 25 by not dodging? That's up there with the best AC a fighter can have*, and a monk can also reduce any damage he does take against missile weapons. And if things do get hairy, the monk can get the heck out of dodge better than anyone. I used to be the forward scout in our group, but now I pull the far rear guard, as if something does happen, I can get up to front easily.

*I'm not counting shield of faith or any other bonus from other PCs, because those same bonuses would apply to the monk as well.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

This is all true, but I've found that my shadow monk does find himself as the defensive road block in a choke point fairly often as well. Yes, any PC can dodge, but a monk can with ki and still attack or do other things. An AC20 with dodge is what? The equivalent of 24 or 25 by not dodging? That's up there with the best AC a fighter can have*, and a monk can also reduce any damage he does take against missile weapons. And if things do get hairy, the monk can get the heck out of dodge better than anyone. I used to be the forward scout in our group, but now I pull the far rear guard, as if something does happen, I can get up to front easily.

*I'm not counting shield of faith or any other bonus from other PCs, because those same bonuses would apply to the monk as well.

Edit: correcting my math makes me correct my conclusions too.

Yes, against monsters with a +4 to-hit bonus, you'll get hit 25% of the time with AC 20 (I've yet to see a monk with AC 20 but arguendo we'll grant it) and 6.25% of the time with AC 20 + Dodge. That's equivalent to AC 24.75 if there were any such thing as fractional AC, and it costs you a ki point and a bonus action. Vs. a death slaad getting +10 to attack, the dodging AC 20 monk is getting hit 30% of the time, which is comparable to AC 25. In short, it's probably okay to think a AC 20 + Dodge as roughly equivalent to AC 25 against a broad range of monsters.