Infinite XP Machines (respawning foes & XP)

[Remathilis]

Ok, here is the scenario.

I was working on a place in my world where spirits of the fallen (soliders from a forgotten war) arise each night to do battle. Even when slain, they arise again the next night. They are hostile to anyone who comes near them, and will attack living foes along with their undying rivals.

For rules, I was considering making them minions that arise again the next night unless they take radiant damage (which destroys them utterly). But then something in my brain flagged up and said...

"Why use radiant damage when every night they are guaranteed XP? After ten nights (assuming a level appropriate encounter) they'd level. After a while, it wouldn't be worth it, but dropping a fireball into an undead army of minions is a guaranteed 9 dead minions, and a few other area-affect spells and power later they could clear the field, rest up, and do it again the next night."

(Before you say: "That's a minion/4e problem", replace "minion" with "low HD monster" and you'll see the same results).

Two thoughts enter my head: the first is obvious; don't give them XP beyond the first time they defeat them. But that seems unfair; they are technically in the same amount of danger each night. The ghosts don't do less damage or have weaker ACs, they are the same ghosts in the same rough encounter levels. (Akin to if PCs slay a room full of 5 kobolds and then walk into the next room a slay 4 more, you wouldn't withhold the XP from the latter kobolds just because they slew the former).

OTOH: I don't want an XP factory where each night they fight a bunch of ghosts and then go home, and viola one month later they're two-levels higher...

(The same idea can be applied to portals that summon demons at regular intervals or an icky black cauldrin that spits out a goblin a night).

Anyone got any good ideas to keep the concept but not create an infinite XP loop?

 

[mach1.9pants]

What I would do was make the number of undead increase every night, by a significant amount. Just say that the violence going on in the area is creating more undead*, or something like that. Makes sense to me. So if they just knock 'em down and camp up for some more XP, the next night give them a surprise when they are overwhelmed by masses of undead. Obviously the holy power of radiant damage will stop the increase if they are all destroyed.

*EDIT: causing more of the dead to arise from their slumber..sounds better

 

[Tremorsense]

Anyone got any good ideas to keep the concept but not create an infinite XP loop?

Simplest way (without abandoning XP altogether) would be to only award XP for putting them to rest. Make it worth 2x the encounter's XP value (assuming they'll fight it once and fail to put it to rest, and learn enough to succeed the next time). 4e already has provisions for arbitrary XP giving (quests) so it shouldn't offend anyone's senses to have the special monsters of a quest not give xp themselves.

 

[Dausuul]

And this, ladies and gentlemen, illustrates perfectly why I quit giving out XP for kills many, many years ago (and, since the release of 4E, have quit using XP altogether).

Anyway, here's a proposal: Have the characters wake up the next day after fighting the ghosts with 1 less healing surge than normal. After a day, they'll recover... but next time they fight the ghosts, they'll wake up down by 2 healing surges, the third time down by 3, and so on (regardless of how much time passes between battles). Characters thus afflicted grow pale and wan. Food and drink begin to taste like ash. Color leaches out of the world.

Anyone who is reduced to zero surges by this effect dies and can't be resurrected. You wanted to fight the ghosts over and over again? Congratulations... now you get to fight them forever, because you just became one of them.

 

[mach1.9pants]

Nice one dausuul. better than my idea

 

[Wycen]

How about making them illusionary in the sense they seem to be real and it only takes 1 hit to kill them, but if they actually "kill" a character, that character just needs to be revived from subdual damage or something like that.

 

[Shroomy]

Why don't you consolidate the horde of ghostly minions into a single hazard (and then mix in some tougher spirits to increase the challenge)? That way, only specific countermeasures and not some random fireball can truly overcome the challenge. That way, you should be able to make an interesting encounter and keep the XP gains under check.

 

[Bullgrit]

I've used respawning guardians a couple of times (in D&D3). I did xp so:

First killing = full xp
Second killing = half xp
Third killing = quarter xp
Fourth killing = tenth xp
Fifth and more = no xp

Bullgrit

 

[Hunter In Darkness]

If your doing xp I think bullgrits ideal is a good one

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

And this, ladies and gentlemen, illustrates perfectly why I quit giving out XP for kills many, many years ago (and, since the release of 4E, have quit using XP altogether).

Anyway, here's a proposal: Have the characters wake up the next day after fighting the ghosts with 1 less healing surge than normal. After a day, they'll recover... but next time they fight the ghosts, they'll wake up down by 2 healing surges, the third time down by 3, and so on (regardless of how much time passes between battles). Characters thus afflicted grow pale and wan. Food and drink begin to taste like ash. Color leaches out of the world.

Anyone who is reduced to zero surges by this effect dies and can't be resurrected. You wanted to fight the ghosts over and over again? Congratulations... now you get to fight them forever, because you just became one of them.

I like this idea. It's not a something you could use for every "XP spawning machine", but hey, it's all about exceptional design.

Alternatively, I think I would give XP for the first regular fight, and XP again to figure out how to "disable" the "XP spawning machine". (That would be the general approach). Turning it off is a Quest...