"Initiate of Mystra" Questions

[Jimlock]

Player's Guide To Faerun (3.5) p81:



Initiate of Mystra [Initiate] <--- FEAT

Benefit: You can attempt to cast spells even within a dead magic zone or an antimagic field.
In a dead magic zone, you must make a successful caster level check against a DC equal to 20 + the level
of the spell you are trying to cast. In an antimagic field, you must make a successful caster level
check against a DC equal to 11 + the caster of the antimagic field. If the check is successful,
your spell functions normally.

Questions:

1) What happens when the cleric fails his caster level check? Does he lose the spell or not?

2) What happens to spells with say... lasting durations? Say the cleric casts Owl's Wisdom on himself... what then? I assume that the spell takes effect normally, but its "effect" is suppressed within the AF. Is that right?
...Or does "normally" mean that the spell works as if there never was an AMF?


EDIT: Edited the text in both questions, after new information came to my notice regarding AMF in this thread:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-legacy-discussion/312558-casting-spells-antimagic-fields.html

 

[Jimlock]

guys... I understand how these questions can cause a headache...

but please... give it a try...

 

[parinho7]

1) What happens when the cleric fails his caster level check? Does he lose the spell or not?
By this text only, I assume that the cleric keeps the spell as if he never tried to cast it. Is there, somewhere, an official clarification? Obviously I ask because by RAW, such an ability is pretty abusive.

My interpretation is that you cast the spell and make a caster level check if you fail the spell is lost, just like when loosing a spell from recieving damage or from arcane spell failure. I assume the process of casting the spell has started and the caster level check is made during the casting.

2) What happens to spells with lasting durations? Say the cleric casts Owl's Wisdom on himself... what then? I assume that the spell takes effect normally, but its "effect" is suppressed with the AF. Is that right?
What happens if he attempts a slay living on a target next to him (Both in the AF). What then?

If the check is successful,
your spell functions normally.

 

[jonesy]

You can attempt to cast spells..

He doesn't lose the spell if he fails the check, because he never gained the spell to begin with. The attempt to even begin casting the spell failed.

 

[Arrowhawk]

Player's Guide To Faerun (3.5) p81:



Initiate of Mystra [Initiate] <--- FEAT

Benefit: You can attempt to cast spells even within a dead magic zone or an antimagic field.
In a dead magic zone, you must make a successful caster level check against a DC equal to 20 + the level
of the spell you are trying to cast. In an antimagic field, you must make a successful caster level
check against a DC equal to 11 + the caster of the antimagic field. If the check is successful,
your spell functions normally.

Questions:

1) What happens when the cleric fails his caster level check? Does he lose the spell or not?

2) What happens to spells with say... lasting durations? Say the cleric casts Owl's Wisdom on himself... what then? I assume that the spell takes effect normally, but its "effect" is suppressed within the AF. Is that right?
...Or does "normally" mean that the spell works as if there never was an AMF?


EDIT: Edited the text in both questions, after new information came to my notice regarding AMF in this thread:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-legacy-discussion/312558-casting-spells-antimagic-fields.html

I am not versed on DMZ's....

Regarding an AMF, based on your description of IoM, the attempt you make with the feat is for the spell to function "normally" i.e. to not be affected by the AMF. If you fail the check, the spell functions as if you didn't have the feat: it is cast, and it is suppressed.

So, imi (in my interpretation), you don't lose the spell inside an AMF. It could be a trade off that the feat has the down side of making you lose the spell entirely if you fail the check. But I'm not seeing that in what you've provided.

 

[jonesy]

Hmm. Having thought about this some more I'm no longer sure at all how it works. Disregard my previous post. It all hinges on whether spells cast within the AMF are merely suppressed or altogether dispelled, and that depends on how one reads the rules regarding that, and the more I read them, the more I fail to see how it actually does work.

 

[airwalkrr]

Okay a couple points here:
1) The feat says you can "attempt" to cast spells in places where you normally can't.
2) The wording seems to presume the caster is located inside such an area, not merely casting a spell into an area.
3) It seems to me that the feat assumes the following: it is not normally possible to cast spells in a dead magic zone or antimagic field, i.e. such attempts automatically fail (carrying all sundry penalties, see below). Without this assumption there seems to be no reason for the feat.

That said, I'll answer your questions with my opinion:

Q: What happens when the cleric fails his caster level check? Does he lose the spell or not?
A: The spell fails and is lost, as is the case any time a spell fails, such as failing to overcome spell resistance or arcane spell failure.

Q: What happens to spells with say... lasting durations? Say the cleric casts Owl's Wisdom on himself... what then? I assume that the spell takes effect normally, but its "effect" is suppressed within the AF. Is that right?
...Or does "normally" mean that the spell works as if there never was an AMF?
A: It seems clear to me the intent here is to grant the character the ability to ignore the effects of a dead magic zone or antimagic field completely pending a successful check. With that in mind, if a cleric successfully casts owl's wisdom inside a dead magic zone, then the spell would function normally, granting the cleric a +4 to wisdom for the full duration of the spell. However, if said cleric then entered the area of an antimagic field, the spell would be suppressed for as long as the cleric was in the antimagic field. This is because the feat appears to only grant the ability to have a spell function normally when casting, and does not appear to affect spells already in effect before entering such an area of dead magic/antimagic.

 

[Jimlock]

IMO, your reasoning is sound.

Okay a couple points here:
1) The feat says you can "attempt" to cast spells in places where you normally can't.
2) The wording seems to presume the caster is located inside such an area, not merely casting a spell into an area.
3) It seems to me that the feat assumes the following: it is not normally possible to cast spells in a dead magic zone or antimagic field, i.e. such attempts automatically fail (carrying all sundry penalties, see below). Without this assumption there seems to be no reason for the feat.

I agree.

That said, I'll answer your questions with my opinion:

Q: What happens when the cleric fails his caster level check? Does he lose the spell or not?
A: The spell fails and is lost, as is the case any time a spell fails, such as failing to overcome spell resistance or arcane spell failure.

I agree.

Q: What happens to spells with say... lasting durations? Say the cleric casts Owl's Wisdom on himself... what then? I assume that the spell takes effect normally, but its "effect" is suppressed within the AF. Is that right?
...Or does "normally" mean that the spell works as if there never was an AMF?
A: It seems clear to me the intent here is to grant the character the ability to ignore the effects of a dead magic zone or antimagic field completely pending a successful check. With that in mind, if a cleric successfully casts owl's wisdom inside a dead magic zone, then the spell would function normally, granting the cleric a +4 to wisdom for the full duration of the spell. However, if said cleric then entered the area of an antimagic field, the spell would be suppressed for as long as the cleric was in the antimagic field. This is because the feat appears to only grant the ability to have a spell function normally when casting, and does not appear to affect spells already in effect before entering such an area of dead magic/antimagic.

Now this is where I have an objection... well not entirely but...

Keeping in mind the three points you made in the beginning of your post, we assume that a normal caster CANNOT cast spells when standing within an AMF.

Therefore, IoM grants the ability to cast spells when standing within an AMF.

Now for me, the: If the check is successful, your spell functions normally.

has two possible meanings:

1) The spell functions normally as if there never was an AMF to suppress it/affect it.

2) The spell functions "normally", as in: it is cast (without the feat that wouldn't be possible) and the AMF affect it normally.
A spell's "normal" behavior is to be suppressed while in the AMF.

For example you can cast Owl's Wisdom (while without the feat you couldn't) but the effect remains suppressed while in the AMF.
Another example would be, to stand in the AMF and cast Flame Strike in an area outside the AMF (something that would not have been possible without the feat).

Personally I "prefer" #2. Not because it makes more sense than #1... actually... I admit that #1 is more clear of an answer and perhaps what the writers intended... but because I believe that, balance wise, this unbelievably broken power granted by this Feat (which also grants other stuff as well!... as if this wasn't enough!) is somewhat checked.

Again, I admit that #1 is more clear, but I'd prefer to interpret it the other way so as to keep this ability "low".

 

[kitcik]

two possible meanings:

1) The spell functions normally as if there never was an AMF to suppress it/affect it.

2) The spell functions "normally", as in: it is cast (without the feat that wouldn't be possible) and the AMF affect it normally.
A spell's "normal" behavior is to be suppressed while in the AMF.

Clearly, based on the other thread, if you believe spells can be cast in an AMF, the answer is #1. If not, it is #2.

Based on that, I go with #1.

The tricky part is what does that say about the "dead zone" - does this now imply you can cast in a magic dead zone? I would have thought not.

Just another example where the rules are ambiguous and somewhat self-contradictory... at least in implications.

I think RAW is #1, but I am inclined towards #2 as that is how I always felt it should be.

 

[airwalkrr]

Now this is where I have an objection... well not entirely but...

Keeping in mind the three points you made in the beginning of your post, we assume that a normal caster CANNOT cast spells when standing within an AMF.

Therefore, IoM grants the ability to cast spells when standing within an AMF.

Now for me, the: If the check is successful, your spell functions normally.

has two possible meanings:

1) The spell functions normally as if there never was an AMF to suppress it/affect it.

2) The spell functions "normally", as in: it is cast (without the feat that wouldn't be possible) and the AMF affect it normally.
A spell's "normal" behavior is to be suppressed while in the AMF.

For example you can cast Owl's Wisdom (while without the feat you couldn't) but the effect remains suppressed while in the AMF.
Another example would be, to stand in the AMF and cast Flame Strike in an area outside the AMF (something that would not have been possible without the feat).

Personally I "prefer" #2. Not because it makes more sense than #1... actually... I admit that #1 is more clear of an answer and perhaps what the writers intended... but because I believe that, balance wise, this unbelievably broken power granted by this Feat (which also grants other stuff as well!... as if this wasn't enough!) is somewhat checked.

Again, I admit that #1 is more clear, but I'd prefer to interpret it the other way so as to keep this ability "low".

#2 wouldn't make much sense then, would it, if applied to a flame strike spell? If you're stuck in a dead magic zone you don't have much use for spells with durations unless you are skittering along the edge of the zone intending to be able to hop out when you need to as the spells will likely run out by the time you exit. So at least in the case of dead magic zones its clear to me this was meant to give a cleric at least a prayer of having spells function at that critical moment when they are needed most.

And I agree that the feat is pretty powerful, but the ability to overcome antimagic/dead magic is highly situational and more of a fringe benefit than anything else. I've seen few DMs even dare to tread upon those grounds because it is seen as too punishing to PCs. What DM wants to be chased away from the table by his wizard and cleric players by forcing them into a dead magic zone? And it isn't even guaranteed to succeed. Against a caster of an AMF who is of equal power you have a 50% chance of success. Not exactly stellar odds. If you're a 10th-level caster in a dead magic zone trying to use a measly 1st-level spell, also a 50% chance. Again, not great odds. Certainly not reliable.

I am fairly certain #1 is the correct interpretation.