Initiative and Sneak Attack

[mcgeedis]

Hey gang. Seems like Rogues have been a hot topic lately. So I'm gonna keep the ball rolling.

I was wondering about this scenario:

My dexterity based Rogue/Fighter has Two Weapon Fighting, Quick Draw, Weapon Finesse and Improved Initiative. Her ranged attacks are either Longbow or Darts.

So, as you might guess she wins initiative rather often. My question is, would my Rogue, while using her darts, be able apply her Sneak Attack damage on both of her attacks? I do know the limit of the dart's range. But, if using darts, shouldn't she effectively be able to use her Sneak Attack damage if both of her attacks hit and her opponent hasn't reacted yet? My DM and some of the other players gave me the impression that the second attack from TWF wouldn't count as Sneak Attack since the opponent would then be aware of my rogue's attacks. What did they mean by being aware? I dunno. My reply was basically that the enemy would be aware that their dex denied butts were getting handed to them.

 

[AnonymousOne]

Every single attack that a rogue makes that qualifies as a Sneak Attack is a Sneak Attack.

Of you're a Fighter/Rogue lvl 20 and have 4 attacks and you run two weapon fighting, you COULD potentially dish out 8 sneak attacks using a fullround attack action (provided you hit and all that).

So yes, both darts or arrows count as sneak attacks and get the bonus damage dice, provided they hit.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Until the opponent has taken his first turn in the initiative order, he is flat-footed.

Unless he has Uncanny Dodge, he is denied his Dex bonus while flat-footed.

Any attack your rogue makes against an opponent who is denied Dex bonus (assuming he's within 30 feet, if it's a ranged weapon) is a sneak attack.

So yes - if you win initiative and throw two darts in the first round, both should be sneak attacks.

-Hyp.

 

[SteveC]

I just wanted to agree with the other comments here, but also mention that this is one area where making a house rule can have a major impact in game play.

In just about all of the games I've played in where there's been a ranged or two weapon fighting rogue, the players have griped that it's horribly broken to always have characters start a combat flat footed. You can imagine how this works when they run into a group of rogue badguys too!

The notion seems to be that "it just makes sense" that you shouldn't start a battle flat-footed if you knew it was going to happen (i.e., any time there's no surprise). My contention has always been that this is an intended feature of the game (not to mention a character with Sudden Strike's bread and butter). Changing this so that it "makes sense" affects the power of those quick rogues/ninjas severely, and it also reduced the value of class abilities like Uncanny Dodge.

So yes, the rogue can do hella damage on that first round, but the barbarian can do similar damage round in and round out...

Just my $.02.

--Steve

 

[Dracandross]

The notion seems to be that "it just makes sense" that you shouldn't start a battle flat-footed if you knew it was going to happen (i.e., any time there's no surprise). My contention has always been that this is an intended feature of the game (not to mention a character with Sudden Strike's bread and butter). Changing this so that it "makes sense" affects the power of those quick rogues/ninjas severely, and it also reduced the value of class abilities like Uncanny Dodge.

--Steve

That's true, but surprise is worth a lot more. For example I run around corner and stumble upon a rogue. Im not surprised as hes bit stumbled too. Still he manages to draw his dagger out before I can react well enough stabbing my lungs. If id been surprised Id not been aware of the attack even on the first round and on the second he was just faster than me to react (therefore getting more sneaks).

So I'd not rule it on surprise only. But whole situation. If I challege that same thief to combat and then we roll for init who goes first, Im aware of coming attack and readied to fight, init just declares who deals first blow. Therefore im knowing of attack and in the first one I wasn't

- Dracandross

 

[hong]

I just wanted to agree with the other comments here, but also mention that this is one area where making a house rule can have a major impact in game play.

In just about all of the games I've played in where there's been a ranged or two weapon fighting rogue, the players have griped that it's horribly broken to always have characters start a combat flat footed. You can imagine how this works when they run into a group of rogue badguys too!

The notion seems to be that "it just makes sense" that you shouldn't start a battle flat-footed if you knew it was going to happen (i.e., any time there's no surprise). My contention has always been that this is an intended feature of the game (not to mention a character with Sudden Strike's bread and butter). Changing this so that it "makes sense" affects the power of those quick rogues/ninjas severely, and it also reduced the value of class abilities like Uncanny Dodge.

So yes, the rogue can do hella damage on that first round, but the barbarian can do similar damage round in and round out...

There are a lot of weirdo design decisions involving sneak attack/sudden strike. Hey, check out how uncanny dodge totally screws the ninja, even without changing how init works. And at high levels rogues are rather wimpy anyway, what with fortification armour and undead, elementals and constructs running around.

Besides, IME rogues tend to do a lot more sneak attacking when flanking, as opposed to 1st-round attacking. You need to close with the target, and that generally means you only get one sneak attack. That won't take most monsters down, and in turn leaves you open to their full attack.

I change the rule so that you're only flat-footed in the surprise round (if there's one), not the first normal round of combat. This makes it so that ambushes really are that: ambushes. If anybody IMC wanted a sneak attack character, I'd grab the idea of skill challenges from Iron Heroes: make a skill check (Jump/Tumble/Bluff/Sleight of Hand) opposed by their BAB check. If you win, you get to sneak attack.

 

[Darklone]

Poor DMs who always whine about how strong these full attack action using rogues are.

Yesterday our Swash3/Rog3/Dread Pirate1 with Dual Strike, Daring Outlaw and TWF scored around 30 points in a first round where he won initiative. In the battle afterwards, a gnoll barbarian charged twice at the rgr3/sco3 Swift Hunter for 2d4+19 falchion damage with Power Attack...

Can't say these sneak attack "smackdowns" seem broken to me. They are not. They don't cause much more damage than a big brute with high strength and rage and they are pretty easy to avoid.