toucanbuzz
No rule is inviolate
I'm looking to improve my group's current initiative system.
We've been using the DMG optional "Speed Factor" system (similar to AD&D where you declare actions in advance like "I'm using my Warhammer" and choice of action affects initiative). I posted awhile back actual gameplay feedback, and in summary it works to generate tension, drama, and unpredictability to combat without slowing our game down, but it has cons I'm looking to improve upon, namely that with a d20 roll, player choice of Action is still largely whim, and whether players should be able to change a declared action.
So I'm not posting to convince anyone to use this system or asking for feedback on why you think it wouldn't work for you. I'm looking to improve on what works at my table and am looking at homebrewing an adaptation of the Greyhawk Initiative (which has flaws as written), using what other DMs have come up with and my own work.
Dynamic Initiative Proposal A:
1. Players discuss as a group to declare what Actions and Bonus actions they will take each round.
2. Instead of a d20, the choice of actions will determine what initiative die they roll. Lowest numbers go first. [sblock]Knowing roughly what you're going to do when your turn rolls around has worked wonders at the game table in curbing analysis paralysis. I suppose it might help with people who don't pay attention, but that might be personality, not game mechanics. Small learning curve expected to return to AD&D's low number "count up" system.[/sblock]
* Only one initiative die/dice is rolled, no matter how many Actions you declare. You simply take the highest (slowest) die out of all your actions.
* Dexterity no longer applies
* Ties are resolved by your Passive Initiative, which replaces your character sheet spot. It's your Dexterity or Intelligence score + any modifiers from the Alert feat or other features.
* If you are incapacitated, you don't roll for initiative. If that status is removed, you can only Move
Duration: Effects are checked at the end of a round in which the turn came into play for an affected creature, and duration spells last until the end of the next round.[sblock] This is a convoluted way to saying common sense applies and Rules as Intended means you get use out of your abilities. If you cast True Strike it doesn't end until you've had your next round's turn to use it or lose it. The Monk Stunning Strike means you get use out of it. You would never stun an ogre, and then by quirk of initiative, have the Stun end before it cost the ogre a turn. That's not RAI. Rather, if you go last and stun the Ogre, then go first the next round, the Ogre is still stunned until the end of the round. Otherwise, we'd get a result that is absurd. But, if you went first and stunned the ogre, then it lost its turn, the effect is tagged to end at the conclusion of the round. Otherwise, saves against effects like Hold, slow, and death saves are all checked at the end of the round because you don't roll initiative when you can't act.[/sblock]
Action / Die to Roll
No action, loaded crossbow 1st round only = +1
Dodge, Dash, Disengage = d4
Cantrip = d4
Unarmed or natural attack = d6
Use item, swap gear, misc action not listed = d6
Melee weapon attack = damage dice of weapon (One DM simply had all weapons go off their damage die, ranged included.)
Spell = d4 + spell dice* [sblock] I'm not sold on this if simplicity is a goal. Mearls had a simple d10 for spells. But I understand the concern. The higher the level of the spell, the more it impacts the entire game arena. In AD&D, each spell had its own speed. The Power Word spells were the fastest, so just because a spell was 9th level didn't mean they took the longest to cast. Another DM did escalating dice for the # of components (V, S,or M) the spell had. One component = d6, two = d8, all three = d10.[/sblock]
*Spell dice increase a step every 2 levels of the spell, starting at d4: levels 1-2 = +1d4; 3-4 = +d6; 5-6 = +d8; 7-8 = +d10, 9 = +d12
Special
Advantage, Feats, and Features: Advantage works as before, just take the better of the two rolls for you. Every feature or feat (Alert) that improves initiative decreases the die roll by 1 step, minimum d3 (e.g. 2d6 becomes d10, d4 becomes d3), and vice versa for disadvantage, max d20 (e.g. a 1 becomes d3). For spells, only the spell dice are ever affected. The core 1d4 never changes. [this assumes we stick with the spell dice, which add a layer of complication as per the above spoiler.]
Reach: I've really debated on how realistic to make reach. Any creature currently wielding a melee weapon or natural melee attack with at least 10' reach may opt to use its Attack action to strike first if an opponent without at least 10' reach enters a threatened square, regardless of initiative order. This can override any action the creature was going to take.[sblock]This gives no extra actions and has no effect if the creature has already acted. It's a simple rule to reflect the benefit of reach weapons in keeping foes at bay. If we wanted to get insanely realistic, we'd do what Hackmaster does and assign a "reach" score to each weapon, and while that's interesting, it's probably too much. But I can see a player claiming they have a greatsword against a dagger, shouldn't that count too? We're setting a bright line somewhere, and this is simple. As to creatures with reach greater than 10', there's no additional effect or benefit. [/sblock]
Delaying: Ready Action replaced with Delay. When your turn comes, you can choose to act on a later initiative count, either before or after another creature, or as an event occurs, as you declare.[sblock] It's similar to Ready, but not quite. If multiple creatures delay to the same turn, obviously whoever delayed first gets dibs to act. Of course, common sense applies. If you were holding your shot until the goblin shows its face and the goblin never does, you still get a turn, after the goblin.[/sblock]
Changing your Mind: So this is the biggie. Under Mearls and Speed Factor, you cannot. The entire purpose of declaring your action in advance was to avoid slowing the game down with decision making when your turn is up. You were using your sword, well then it's in your hand, find a way to use it. So this is the source of my greatest debate, but other DMs have said they homebrewed it in. When your turn rolls around, you can change your Action, but this requires you spend your Reaction for the round to do so. If you change your mind, you forfeit your current turn, roll initiative dice for the new actions, and add that to the current initiative. This will be your new turn. Which largely assures you'll go last.
Hypothetical Pros: It gives us the dynamic tension and lack of predictability we're looking for. It's simplistic in that you roll dice once, though learning curve will take a few sessions especially for casters. Note: the original Mearls system simply had d10 for spells, which would speed up play. Another DM did a d6, d8, or d10 depending on # of components (V, S, or M) The choice of action has major impact than our current system with replacement of the d20 by smaller dice and removal of the DEX modifier. I've never been sure how being more agile and lucky would somehow make a wizard "say" his spell faster.
Hypothetical Cons: Should ranged weapons get a huge advantage to go first? It's intentional apparently under the idea arrows move fast. [sblock] There's no way to satisfy everyone, but if it makes people feel better, there's plenty of historical literature and sites where people have tested out firing and reload rates of medieval weapons, and with a belt hook, a trained modern bowman could reload and fire one of those suckers in around 8 seconds. I'll say it again and again, if we think too much about physics in the fantasy D&D world, heads will explode.[/I] We still haven't completely solved that "weapon speed" is really "weapon reach" and that yes, if we are grappling, I can stab you several times before you can get your sword to bear, and grid combat is a mix of people fighting up close and dueling and blocking with their crossbow and all sorts of things that can't be satisfactorily accounted for.[/sblock]
Last pro/con concerns players who get knocked out in a round before they could act and then are healed back up (commonly called "whack-a-mole," "yo-yo effect," and every "Rocky" boxing movie ever made). In our current system, I've been allowing players a roll to see if they can act, but we don't have a "change your mind" provision where someone can heal you. So, in our current system before the homebrew rule, fighter gets knocked out before his turn. That sucks. Next round, he can't declare an action. He's unconscious. Cleric heals him. Then the troll knocks him out again. That's already 2 straight rounds he didn't get to act, and now at least a 3rd. My players don't like this, but they also understand the silliness of "whack-a-mole." I'm torn on this one. There needs to be a penalty for going down. If I make it too easy to get back into the fray, combats become silly and the tension of facing death at any moment is diminished.
We've been using the DMG optional "Speed Factor" system (similar to AD&D where you declare actions in advance like "I'm using my Warhammer" and choice of action affects initiative). I posted awhile back actual gameplay feedback, and in summary it works to generate tension, drama, and unpredictability to combat without slowing our game down, but it has cons I'm looking to improve upon, namely that with a d20 roll, player choice of Action is still largely whim, and whether players should be able to change a declared action.
So I'm not posting to convince anyone to use this system or asking for feedback on why you think it wouldn't work for you. I'm looking to improve on what works at my table and am looking at homebrewing an adaptation of the Greyhawk Initiative (which has flaws as written), using what other DMs have come up with and my own work.
Dynamic Initiative Proposal A:
1. Players discuss as a group to declare what Actions and Bonus actions they will take each round.
2. Instead of a d20, the choice of actions will determine what initiative die they roll. Lowest numbers go first. [sblock]Knowing roughly what you're going to do when your turn rolls around has worked wonders at the game table in curbing analysis paralysis. I suppose it might help with people who don't pay attention, but that might be personality, not game mechanics. Small learning curve expected to return to AD&D's low number "count up" system.[/sblock]
* Only one initiative die/dice is rolled, no matter how many Actions you declare. You simply take the highest (slowest) die out of all your actions.
* Dexterity no longer applies
* Ties are resolved by your Passive Initiative, which replaces your character sheet spot. It's your Dexterity or Intelligence score + any modifiers from the Alert feat or other features.
* If you are incapacitated, you don't roll for initiative. If that status is removed, you can only Move
Duration: Effects are checked at the end of a round in which the turn came into play for an affected creature, and duration spells last until the end of the next round.[sblock] This is a convoluted way to saying common sense applies and Rules as Intended means you get use out of your abilities. If you cast True Strike it doesn't end until you've had your next round's turn to use it or lose it. The Monk Stunning Strike means you get use out of it. You would never stun an ogre, and then by quirk of initiative, have the Stun end before it cost the ogre a turn. That's not RAI. Rather, if you go last and stun the Ogre, then go first the next round, the Ogre is still stunned until the end of the round. Otherwise, we'd get a result that is absurd. But, if you went first and stunned the ogre, then it lost its turn, the effect is tagged to end at the conclusion of the round. Otherwise, saves against effects like Hold, slow, and death saves are all checked at the end of the round because you don't roll initiative when you can't act.[/sblock]
Action / Die to Roll
No action, loaded crossbow 1st round only = +1
Dodge, Dash, Disengage = d4
Cantrip = d4
Unarmed or natural attack = d6
Use item, swap gear, misc action not listed = d6
Melee weapon attack = damage dice of weapon (One DM simply had all weapons go off their damage die, ranged included.)
Spell = d4 + spell dice* [sblock] I'm not sold on this if simplicity is a goal. Mearls had a simple d10 for spells. But I understand the concern. The higher the level of the spell, the more it impacts the entire game arena. In AD&D, each spell had its own speed. The Power Word spells were the fastest, so just because a spell was 9th level didn't mean they took the longest to cast. Another DM did escalating dice for the # of components (V, S,or M) the spell had. One component = d6, two = d8, all three = d10.[/sblock]
*Spell dice increase a step every 2 levels of the spell, starting at d4: levels 1-2 = +1d4; 3-4 = +d6; 5-6 = +d8; 7-8 = +d10, 9 = +d12
Special
Advantage, Feats, and Features: Advantage works as before, just take the better of the two rolls for you. Every feature or feat (Alert) that improves initiative decreases the die roll by 1 step, minimum d3 (e.g. 2d6 becomes d10, d4 becomes d3), and vice versa for disadvantage, max d20 (e.g. a 1 becomes d3). For spells, only the spell dice are ever affected. The core 1d4 never changes. [this assumes we stick with the spell dice, which add a layer of complication as per the above spoiler.]
Reach: I've really debated on how realistic to make reach. Any creature currently wielding a melee weapon or natural melee attack with at least 10' reach may opt to use its Attack action to strike first if an opponent without at least 10' reach enters a threatened square, regardless of initiative order. This can override any action the creature was going to take.[sblock]This gives no extra actions and has no effect if the creature has already acted. It's a simple rule to reflect the benefit of reach weapons in keeping foes at bay. If we wanted to get insanely realistic, we'd do what Hackmaster does and assign a "reach" score to each weapon, and while that's interesting, it's probably too much. But I can see a player claiming they have a greatsword against a dagger, shouldn't that count too? We're setting a bright line somewhere, and this is simple. As to creatures with reach greater than 10', there's no additional effect or benefit. [/sblock]
Delaying: Ready Action replaced with Delay. When your turn comes, you can choose to act on a later initiative count, either before or after another creature, or as an event occurs, as you declare.[sblock] It's similar to Ready, but not quite. If multiple creatures delay to the same turn, obviously whoever delayed first gets dibs to act. Of course, common sense applies. If you were holding your shot until the goblin shows its face and the goblin never does, you still get a turn, after the goblin.[/sblock]
Changing your Mind: So this is the biggie. Under Mearls and Speed Factor, you cannot. The entire purpose of declaring your action in advance was to avoid slowing the game down with decision making when your turn is up. You were using your sword, well then it's in your hand, find a way to use it. So this is the source of my greatest debate, but other DMs have said they homebrewed it in. When your turn rolls around, you can change your Action, but this requires you spend your Reaction for the round to do so. If you change your mind, you forfeit your current turn, roll initiative dice for the new actions, and add that to the current initiative. This will be your new turn. Which largely assures you'll go last.
Hypothetical Pros: It gives us the dynamic tension and lack of predictability we're looking for. It's simplistic in that you roll dice once, though learning curve will take a few sessions especially for casters. Note: the original Mearls system simply had d10 for spells, which would speed up play. Another DM did a d6, d8, or d10 depending on # of components (V, S, or M) The choice of action has major impact than our current system with replacement of the d20 by smaller dice and removal of the DEX modifier. I've never been sure how being more agile and lucky would somehow make a wizard "say" his spell faster.
Hypothetical Cons: Should ranged weapons get a huge advantage to go first? It's intentional apparently under the idea arrows move fast. [sblock] There's no way to satisfy everyone, but if it makes people feel better, there's plenty of historical literature and sites where people have tested out firing and reload rates of medieval weapons, and with a belt hook, a trained modern bowman could reload and fire one of those suckers in around 8 seconds. I'll say it again and again, if we think too much about physics in the fantasy D&D world, heads will explode.[/I] We still haven't completely solved that "weapon speed" is really "weapon reach" and that yes, if we are grappling, I can stab you several times before you can get your sword to bear, and grid combat is a mix of people fighting up close and dueling and blocking with their crossbow and all sorts of things that can't be satisfactorily accounted for.[/sblock]
Last pro/con concerns players who get knocked out in a round before they could act and then are healed back up (commonly called "whack-a-mole," "yo-yo effect," and every "Rocky" boxing movie ever made). In our current system, I've been allowing players a roll to see if they can act, but we don't have a "change your mind" provision where someone can heal you. So, in our current system before the homebrew rule, fighter gets knocked out before his turn. That sucks. Next round, he can't declare an action. He's unconscious. Cleric heals him. Then the troll knocks him out again. That's already 2 straight rounds he didn't get to act, and now at least a 3rd. My players don't like this, but they also understand the silliness of "whack-a-mole." I'm torn on this one. There needs to be a penalty for going down. If I make it too easy to get back into the fray, combats become silly and the tension of facing death at any moment is diminished.
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