Initiator level, BAB, and the SwordSage.

[Andor]

Okay, so Martial Manuevers are the result of a correctly performed manipulation of a weapon. Since it's related to the rest of combat, your Initiator level goes up even it you're not in a martial adept class at a rate of 1/2 non MA class levels. All makes sense so far, kinda.

If it's a combat skill thing, why does a Wizard gain Initiator levels as fast as a Fiighter? Wouldn't it make more sense to base it off of a characters Base Attack Bonus? Say 1/2 BAB rounded up?

Well, Sure, but then the Sword Sage looks kinda funny doesn't he? The master of Martial Manuevers should seem to have a slower Initiator level progression then the other two classes. He's still a Martial Adept class, so you could ignore it... But it looks funny.

Well why don't we just make the Sword Sage a full BAB class?

You can't do that! It'd be unbalanced!

Why?

Errr... The Sword Sage has more manuvers than anyone else.

Really? He can use more manuevers per combat than the Crusader or War Blade?

Well... No. Not if it's a long combat. The Crusader always has at least one Manuever available, and the Warblade can refresh cheaply. The Sword Sage actually has the slowest recovery of the three classes and in a long battle can either run out or use one manuever every other turn. Or he can spend a feat to recover his manuevers almost as well as the others do by default...

Oh. So more stances?

Uh. On paper, but you can only use one stance at a time. Unless you are a 20th level Warblade.

Ah. So a Sword Sage is tougher than the other two?

No. Not at all. He has the fewest hit points and the worst Armour class.

Right. So, it's his high skill points that make him powerful?

He does get a lot of skill points. Although he doesn't actually have any of the power skills on his list. No Spot, Search, Disable Device, Diplomacy, Bluff, Sleight of Hand, etc...

Huh. His class abilities are better than those of the Warblade and Crusader?

Not so much.

Gotcha. So why not give the Sword Sage a full BAB?

Uh. He's monk like? Then all the classes in the book would look alike? 3/4th BAB progression is sexy?

So what do you guys think? Would there be a downside to giving the Sword Sage a full BAB and making Initiator levels equal to MA levels + 1/2 BAB from non MA classes? Is there no point to this train of thought? Should I have ordered the tunafish?

 

[kigmatzomat]

There is the fact that swordsages get a lot of "feats" in the disciplines boosts. At first level they get weapon focus with, what, 6 weapons?

Personally, I'm tempted to have the non-MA class levels count for 1/2 their BAB just on general principles.

 

[pawsplay]

f it's a combat skill thing, why does a Wizard gain Initiator levels as fast as a Fiighter?

It's esoteric knowledge. For all I know, the study of magic is more relevant to your hadoken than sword-swinging.

 

[Andor]

It's esoteric knowledge. For all I know, the study of magic is more relevant to your hadoken than sword-swinging.

Okay, So Why doesn't the fighter gain Initiator levels faster than a Commoner?

 

[Cadfan]

Who cares if the wizard gets initiator levels at the same speed as the fighter?

Honestly. To use nearly every maneuver in the game, you have to HIT something.

If your party fighter ever bemoans the fact that the party Wizard can spend a feat to be able to do a special bullrush once per combat, hurtling into the enemy with all of the mighty force packed into that 8 strength and 1/2 bab, have lightning strike him on a clear day.

 

[pawsplay]

Okay, So Why doesn't the fighter gain Initiator levels faster than a Commoner?

Because making clay pots perfects the soul. Who gives a crap? Someone who multiclasses as a commoner isn't going to gain levels as fast, because he's going to die anyway.

 

[drquestion]

Like the others, I think changing how non-MA initiator levels work is pointless at best.

Regarding the swordsage, while I do somewhat sympathize with the idea that it suffers from the "monk problem" of being a melee class with a medium BAB, I think you're overstating its shortcomings.

Its class abilities, for one, are really very good - Wis to AC in light armor is nothing to sneeze at, and the discipline-related bonuses are nice, too.

Regarding maneuvers, sure its refresh sucks, but it has access to a much wider variety of maneuvers than a Warblade. Have you actually tried to write up a Warblade vs. a Swordsage? I have, and I can tell you that you really have to be careful with the Warblade in order to make sure that you qualify for the higher-level maneuvers. Swordsage has much less of a problem in this regard.

Also, the Swordsage-specific disciplines are pretty good, especially Shadow Hand, which has a lot of really nice maneuvers and stances and a great feat set.

That said, if I did want to bump up the Swordsage a little bit, I'd be more inclined to change its refresh ability than its BAB. I'd think about making it so the Swordsage spends a full-round to refresh all his maneuvers, while the Warblade does his swift action/attack routine to refresh only one. That would give the Swordsage a nice bump while scaling back the Warblade just a bit.